To think that gang psychoplogy is behind people who like Thatcher

[YohedYoshoulderYonisandYotoes]

I have noticed that many people who 'like' Thatcher are really only people who are either a) trying to align themselves with the Tories with the mistaken and deluded belief that it will sorta make them richer and more socially accepted by the richer folk (the 'Rachel Haircut' idea), or b) people who like the idea of being in the gang that bullies the poor (in this I put people who instead of blaming employers for exploiting their staff so much that their staff would rather choose not to work, blame unions for making them have to walk a bit one day a year or some other small-minded petty inconvenience).

I can accept maybe a third circle that is overlapped by those two above of people who think that because she is middle class and was trying to sound like nasty poor-hating members of the middle and upper class, she is similar to them and so supporting Thatcher is a little like saying 'I'm alright' (and conversely feel that hating Thatcher is a little like hating the embarrassing bit about themselves), but I still think this is 'gang' type behaviour.

Its ironic for a leader who went on about the individual so much that she attacks pack rats.

Is that unreasonable?

[LifeIsBetterInFlipFlops]

You could also say that gang psychology is behind those who hate her.
YABU

[TheChaoGoesMu]

You need to educate yourself op. Yet another person with no idea of the issues in the 70's. Its good to be aware of the facts.

[ComposHat]

or for the dead to be buried.

The 'Winter of discontent' has been hugely mythologised and simplified. Largely through the endless repitition of a few images and phrases ad nauseum.

The so called 'winter of discontent' had routes in the 73 Energy crisis, so it is impossible to lay the blame simply at Labour or the Unions's door. (I'm not saying either is blameless by the way)

The power cuts and the three day week happened under the Tory government of Ted Heath. Heath had lost the 74 election as it was felt that the Tories couldn't handle the Unions. It wasn't as if the Labour party took over from a stable government oversseing a succesful economy.

The grave diggers strike was highly localised and affected about 25 funerals a week in the Liverpool area. Distressing for the families involved, but not quite the images of bodies piling up that phrases like 'the dead went unburried' conjours up.

Whilst the unions were over-powerful but 'holding the government to ransom' is melodramtic and not the whole story. It should be remembered that they were representing their workers at a time when inflation was rampant and outstripping wage increases and as a result their member's standards of living were being hammered -falling by 13% per year in real terms.

[Rosesforrosie]

It would be odder if it were an alive woman's funeral

Very true Hully, it might be a more fitting time for debate though don't you think?

[thecatfromjapan]

for anyone who would like to read an accessible account of the 70s - which challenges the "in the 70s, the UK was going to hell in a handcart", Thatcherism-friendly narrative - may I recommend "When the Lights Went out". <a class="break-all" href="//www.amazon.co.uk/When-Lights-Went-Out-Seventies/dp/0571221378?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">here

It is a really good read. A bit like "The Good Life" = "the Northern Clemency" and those Jonathon Coe books, but kinder, and with some politics thrown in.

[cantspel]

The grave diggers strike was limited to liverpool and tameside and lasted 2 weeks. They ran out of space to store bodies and were stored in an old factory so i think it effected alot more than 25 families. It was also an unofficial strike so no one ever voted for it but in the days of flying pickets you darnt cross a picket line.
Unions were not representative of their workers as strikes were called without ballots and many places were closed shop so you couldn't work there without being a member of the union. Hardly how democracy is supposed to work now is it?

[sydlexic]

It was a simple fact that it was not economically viable to for many companies to meet the workers demands. They could not pay the higher rate. Instead of looking for ways to make the business more profitable or increase productivity unions had everyone down tools so that orders sat in processed and were cancelled. There was less work and they were on a three day week. I sat under the table in the dinning room when secret union meetings took place and listened to the power crazed, they didn't want a solution or an agreement they wanted anarchy.

After the unions were smashed these people joined the CND and caused more disturbances not because of any belief in a cause just because they are fighting the establishment.

[YohedYoshoulderYonisandYotoes]

Well recently there were bodies piling up in morgues because the coroners refused to work weekends - why is it OK for 'professionals' to withdraw labour but not working class people?

[sydlexic]

It is ok for working class to strike. I would strike if I had a good reason and was being unfairly treated. These were unions that found reasons to strike to gain power and hold the country to ransom. The heads of the unions were not interested in the problems of the working class. They knew they would end up with no job at all but did not care.

[MTSgroupie]

Thinking about it OP, anti Thatcher people are the people trying to align themselves with 'the gang'. I mean Thatcher was in power about 25 years ago. Yet there are peope who weren't born or adults during her 'reign' going on about Thatcher the Milk Snatcher. If that is the perfect sign of a gang wannabe then I don't know what is.

[ComposHat]

and hold the country to ransom

You see the same phrases get re-cycled again and again.

Put yourself in the position of low-paid worker: your living standards are plummeting in a way unprecdented since the 1930s. People were experiencing very real hardship as a result.

You expect them to say 'oh well them's the breaks.' Whilst there was a case for wage restraint, I can completely see why workers would demand a pay increase at a time of inflation. The whole 'greedy workers and power mad unions were driving us to rack and ruin, until Saint Maggie turned up and saved us' narrative is a gross over-simplification.

[sydlexic]

I know for a fact that what they were asking for amounted to more than the gross profit that the company was making. The management sat at the table and showed all of books. They told the shop stewards that they would go bankrupt and have no jobs, and they did.

My DF has a metal placue that is enscribed with this is the last smelt of the Lake and Elliott foundry as a memento to his success in closing a company.

There were union leaders from Critall windows, Courtaulds silk mill, Marconi. Eveyone of these companies went to the wall. All of the workers had no jobs, those that were high in the union had been there a long time and got big fat redundancy payments a year before they retired.

[FasterStronger]

Thatcher the Milk Snatcher is not correct - the Treasury wanted all school milk stopped but MT argued to keep it in primary schools etc. the minutes of meetings were in official govt papers released recently.

[ajandjjmum]

And in the case of Scargill, a free flat in London until last year sydlexic! The unions were not democratic. They didn't allow individuals to make decisions. Flying pickets stopped decent men going to work. And yes, it was successful governments which had been ineffective, and it took someone strong to sort it out. She wasn't perfect, but she got this country back on a decent path.

And anyone who is still blaming her for their situation, when she's been out of office for years, has no grasp on reality in my opinion.

[YohedYoshoulderYonisandYotoes]

Gross profit - what is that? Do you mean they were asking for wage bill large than gross profit? That is often the case.

[treesntrees]

so you think not being able to buy bread for your small children because the bakers are on strike is a small thing. Or having to keep candles and matches handy because the electricity was going off. My father tried to start up unions when he worked on the land but even he thought the unions had gone too far and despite being a lifelong socialist he thought she did a good thing breaking the power of the unions.

[LittleMissBunnyoni]

Oh great another sweeping generalisation I just love those .

[LittleBearPad]

Gross profit is sales less the direct costs of making a product. Salaries, admin costs etc are charged below gross profit. To demand wages greater than gross profit is ridiculous as it means there is no point in the company making anything.

[YohedYoshoulderYonisandYotoes]

Woah, if I couldn't feed my kids bread because bakers were striking, or make candle nights exciting I would think I had well failed as a parent! I thought the electricity thing was an imposition by the Tory government because they didn't want to employ more employees when the unions insisted that staff should not work 50+ hours a week as though it were normal...

I bet he claimed to be a lifelong socialist whilst reading the mail everyday..

What do you mean 'charged below gross profit'?

[FasterStronger]

So you'd be fine if the bakers were on strike and the electricity was off. Jolly good. What about old people? Poeple who have electric heating, have electric water heating?

charged below is refering to profit and loss accounting, where you calculate the gross profit then subtract the salaries etc.

If the salaries are greater than the go, you might as well close the business down. Oh. That's what happened.

[TheChaoGoesMu]

We only had electric heating. It was freezing. Theres only so much fun you can take.
At least we were reasonably fit and healthy though. It was a lot harder on more frail people thats for sure.

[ExitPursuedByABear]

ODFO

[YohedYoshoulderYonisandYotoes]

OHYGABTDTPMO

[hopipolla]

Nearly everyone in the country likes Thatcher, I've hardly met anyone who wants to see heavy State interference or renationalisation of major sectors of the economy.