To think Andrew Wakefield has blood on his hands for causing so much distrust over the MMR?

[chicaguapa]

That's it really. He's caused so much damage with his stupid little study. It was years ago, he was struck off, the study was discredited, but people still don't get the MMR because of it.

This thread makes me angry and I have too much to do to be angry, but I just thought I'd pop back to say that I was breastfed for 2.5 years. Measles still nearly killed me (at 4 months, when I was EBF).

You make the decisions you make and you live with the consequences. That goes for both sides. Unfortunately, non-vaccination has consequences for the community in general too.

Flu pandemics kill mainly young healthy adults more than other ?weaker? groups.
Really??? www.cdc.gov/flu/keyfacts.htm

Also just because you are young, doesn't mean you have a healthy immune system. Lifestyle and diet plays a massive part. A lot of 24 year olds that I know eat s**t and don't look after themselves at all.

I'm going to hide this thread now before I put my teacher's hat on and start going into detail about how the immune system works.

I'm on holiday.

(hides thread)

If natural immunity is/was so fab then why has life expectancy gone up and infant mortality gone down since vaccines were introduced? Cancer is a disease largely of maturity btw. We hear more of it nowadays because we live longer so cancer gets the chance to kill us. Oh for the days when whole families were wiped out by diptheria or polio, despite their 'natural immunity'.

Genetics play a part in cholesterol btw. Lifestyle cannot overcome certain other factors.

Am sorry the thread is making you angry poppypebble. FWIW am not sure why I have been sucked in either, I try and avoid vacc threads. As a scientist i find it deeply offensive and patronising that so many people seem to think reading a few highly biased websites or that buying into the agenda of a few people who spout discredited theories for personal financial gain makes them an expert in what is a very complex topic.

People who choose not to vaccinate always have their own reasons, sometimes genuine and tbo I don't think the few genuine cases have been well served by those who choose to buy into the hype. No doubt some will find my post offensive and patronising, but then I prefer to take my advice from professionals not a faceless website or someone with a vested financial interest in creating fear and uncertainty about medical treatments that save lives.

NorthernLurker - re "much better other people's babies should die or be profoundly damaged in the womb than your healthy, living, child receive a safe and widely used injection"

Is it a surprise to you that a mother's priority is her own baby?

I do recommend that hypothetical non-immune woman who might or might not one day come in contact with my non-vaccinated DC to take responsibility for her own baby and get her immunity checked before getting pregnant.

I also recommend the state not to put the burden of responsibility for any hypothetical irresponsible pregnant women on my tiny defenceless babies, because they will be disappointed.

I'm not sure how this offends you, but I assure you that nobody will vaccinate their kids for some elusive idea of Greater Good if they know that there is any risk or any disadvantage involved in it for their baby. In fact, there are Game Theory analyses out there that show that people will not vaccinate their children when perceived risk of vaccination is higher than the perceived benefit from the vaccination for their baby (which is a big fat zero in the case of Rubella vaccine).

"healthy children dont die from measles,if they have been pumped full of toxic ingredients such as aborted fetal tissue at the age of 8 weeks,12 weeks and 16 weeks ,then yes maybe,a healthy breastfed(or even formula fed)child,there is a low risk"

This is such bullshit. Healthy children die from measles all over the wold. And vaccines do not contain aborted foetal tissue.

It's very worrying that some people in this country have little grasp of statistics, evidence and science. Even more worrying that the press take specific stances and campaign about certain issues in a wholly unscientific way.

"The risk of dying from measles is far greater than that of any vaccine damage"

So, vaccinate against measles.

I blame both Wakefield and the media who jumped on the bandwagon.

DD is vaccinated against anything going - I grew up in the developing world where kids died of measles and mothers queued for hours to get their children vaccinated against cholera, polio and smallpox.

My brother nearly lost a leg to a Hib infection in the 1980's - 8 operations and a month in GOSH after 6 months in other hospitals saved it and him.

DH is also immunocompromised hence we've paid privately to have DD vaccinated against chicken-pox.

If others chose not to vaccinate then that is their choice - BUT if it is purely a case of parental choice then I don't think they should be allowed to make use of state education facilities where they could potentially infect those unfortunate children who cannot have vaccinations for legitimate reasons.

It should be mandatory to produce vaccination records when beginning school or nursery.

No Cote, of course it doesn't surprise me that a mother prioritises her own children. I am a mother. It surprises me that people will use that priority to come to flawed decisions and then boast about them. Reducing the burden of ruebella in the population is in your child's interests actually. Prevention is cheaper than treating the consequences and in vaccinating your child, you protect their children.

babyhammock - most autoimmune conditions are linked to an overactive immune system, not a weak one (whether they cause an immune system to go into overdrive or the overdrive makes them more likely isn't sure. Because these things are very complicated). They are the immune system overreacting and attacking body structures and it's the overactive nature that the immune system can take that makes these so debilitating.

I think blaming vaccinations for autoimmune disease is oversimplifying things. These conditions existed pre-vaccines, they exist in people without vaccines (my DD2 has had severe eczema since she was a few days old - it interfered with her newborn hearing test, and hasn't been able to have any yet, she's now 3, due to complications and debating specialists and she was EBF. Even with specialist uber healthy diet her face today looks like it has been burnt with skin peeling off because her immune system over reacts to everything and I saw her ankles free from sore yesterday for the first time she before her first birthday).

I think that blaming vaccines for everything under the sun causes actual vaccine damage to be overlooked and slows down the looking into factors which raise those risks (many complicated intersectors, but many cases have been linked back to improper care of the vaccines and overloading vaccines - having more at once than is recommended, which is a bigger problem in areas where getting them is harder to get such as poorer areas of the States has a higher rate than more affluent areas which can get more regular healthcare). I don't think we'll be able to discuss these and be able to deal with it until we can get proper discussion that isn't side railed by what comes across to me as victim blaming health regime that makes it appear only those that don't care for themselves get sick. That's an oversimplification that causes a lot of damage and that is the oversimplification that the media jumps on and pushes to people. And many people take that media at their word (which is why we need media and science literacy).

"It should be mandatory to produce vaccination records when beginning school or nursery."

This. In fact use of any public service should be conditional on a complete vaccination record except where approved by a recognised health professional.

And Wakefield is an absolute cunt of an individual who should hang his head in shame at the damage he caused. And the idiot parents who knowingly chose to risk the health of their community because they are too stupid to understand basic statistics or science aren't much better.

Gosh that's an intelligent argument beanie

I'm sure that I was asked to show the school my DS's red book to prove his vaccinations were up to date before he started in reception. I have no idea what would have happened if they hadn't been, or if I had refused to comply.

I think that having up to date vaccinations was one of the conditions of him being offered a place in our local (private) nursery.

Is this really unusual, or are most children's records checked?

Oh beanie- why say sensible things in such an offensive way? You're not helping!

most autoimmune conditions are linked to an overactive immune system, not a weak one yes an 'over stimulated' one... it is a fact that vaccines can over stimulate the immune system.

I don't blame vaccines for everything under the sun at all, but I don't want to risk compromising my child's long term well being either for something that I don't think is necessary for him.

Look if you want to vaccinate, then do it. I'm not here to talk anyone out of it. I chose not to for a myriad of different reasons, none of which was an easy decision.....but it was my decision

I'm not an uneducated idiot, the risk for me outweighed the harm to my child.

Vaccination is a civic duty no different to paying tax.

I hold the same opinion of those refuse to vaccinate their precious Tarquin as I do those that evade tax. They're both selfish entitled morons happy to leach the benefits of society while refusing to contribute.

The red book does not have to be shown & your child does not have to be vaccinated to attend any school or nursery.

Ok beanie you've persuaded me. I'll ignore the loss of speech, severe regression & brain damage in ds1 & go and do my 'civic duty'. It would be nice if my fellow citizens did their duty to him & provided him with adequate services without a battle every step of the way but yep you've persuaded me.

Just have been the beautiful way in which you expressed yourself.

But is it civic duty to vaccinate children you (along with sone of their doctors) strongly suspect of being at higher risk of damage - when any regression will cost the tax payer millions. Hmm I wonder.

Vaccination is not a civic duty!

That opinion really annoys me. Parents cannot be expected to put the health of other people's children before their own. Humanity just doesn't work like that. People don't leave their children unvaccinated just for shits and giggles, they do it because they believe they are doing what is best for their own child. The same as every decent parent will do.

The schools asked to see my DC's immunisation record in their red books, I admitted each time that they hasn't had their MMR booster on entry to Reception, they legally AREN'T allowed to refuse your DC entry to school if they haven't been fully vaccinated, because it is parental choice.

They can't enforce no state schooling without being fully immunised because they would then be UNABLE to make exceptions for those that medically can't have them.

Unless they make it compulsory to be fully immunised before Reception, they can't stop people from deciding, after careful thought, to either not immunise at all, or to immunise at a far slower rate, splitting each vaccination from the last.

And if they tried to compel people to vaccinate, there would be a LOT of people that would protest about the removal of parental choice.

Ok, so if all those who choose not to vaccinate do so based on their own research, why does the vaccination rate fluctuate so much with the level of media attention or the rate of measles in the local population?

Are they basing their decision on the misinformation that has commonly been distributed in mainstream media (personally I don't base my families health on a newspaper article) or have they suddenly realised how important vaccination is when faced with the disease?