To think Andrew Wakefield has blood on his hands for causing so much distrust over the MMR?

[chicaguapa]

That's it really. He's caused so much damage with his stupid little study. It was years ago, he was struck off, the study was discredited, but people still don't get the MMR because of it.

Well that's good for you seeker - it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Measles-like virus anyone?

seeker why do you keep asking me for stats?

is it on the number of legal cases? a quick google should answer if so. google autism omnibus for US figures and UK mmr litgation for britain.

i believe the number is arount 100 currently in italy with the Bocca family being considered a landmark case.

Good point LaVolcan re rubella.

Lavolcan

As Rubella itself has been vitually eliminated in the UK and most of Europe with the exception of Poland and Rumania I think the assumption is that it is rubella is no longer in circulation in the UK because babies are vaccinatated before they can get it and pass it on. In 2011 there were just 6 cases of Rubella. They test many more but well over 90% come back negative because there are so many viruses similar to Rubella.

I keep asking you for stats because you say things like MMR is not a safe vaccine, when all the stats show that it is. That there are thousands of vaccine damaged children. And you can't say that without evidence.

I feel I am banging my head against a brick wall here Bruffin. As you say - an assumption. We don't know - is it vaccinating boys, or is it vaccinating babies. Would vaccinating boys at age 10 give the same effect? If we could establish that it was offering it to boys then we could go back to offering the single measles vaccination to babies.

and still no alternative explanation from posters such as magdalen as to what has happened to all these children who developed health issues which look remarkably like the effects of exposure to measles virus after being given mmr.

yes courts make historic rulings on controversial medical cases because they cant come up with any better ideas for a child developing measles encephalitis and brain damage other than said childs exposure to, um, measles virus.

beach but ASD isn't a measles symptom?

So why would anyone expect that exposure to MMR would be linked to ASD?

Haven't read the whole thread, but IMHO the problem is that the single vaccine/s weren't made available as son as it became obvious that the Wakefield claims were reducing MMR takeup.

Instead of offering detailed analysis, we all kept being told to just listen to the clever people in white coats. I HOPE people now GET that this won't wash, however much some of us might wish it had.

Reiteration didn't do it. I notice it isn't working here either.

My father always says, a position not arrived at by reason can't be dispelled by reason, and however that is, it's sure true that it can't be dispelled by authority. The gvt should have prioritised saving children rather than making a point about whitecoated people. It still should. Why not start a single measles vaccine campaign in the big cities now?

Why do you expect people to have alternative explanations? People have tried to find a link between autism and the MMR and not been able to. Scientists are still or king in the cause of autism.

but seeker two versions of mmr have been withdrawn and one is no longer recommended. all of the above because the vaccines were UNSAFE. the governments in question admit this.

these vaccines were unsafe. they caused damage in children. and yet people like you and magdalen are insisting that the MMR has a good safety record.

when three quarters of the versions of a vaccine are declared too unsafe to use that strikes me as a poor safety record.

combined measles vaccines have a poor safety record. the single measles vaccine has a much better safety record. im afraid these are undeniable facts.

Beachcomber,
You wrote:
"magdelen your quips about disney characters annonyed me. this may be a subject thst is fun to debate about on MN and make clever posts about people not getting their facts straight, but for lots of people this isnt a debate. it is real life. a little compassion and rrespect wouldnt go amiss rather than sarky comments about typos. excuse me am posting on a small phone and dont have my favourites bookmarked."
"Disney characters"? What on earth are you on about?
I made the point that your reference to Emily Molloy was likely to be baffling seeker's attempts to find out more since the name you wanted was Emily Moller. There are a few Emily Molloys in existence, which seeker (having used google to try and understand your reference, which would have been pretty obscure to many on this board) was probably being a little puzzled by the relevance of to the current debate. One Emily Molloy is an associate designer at Disney, another is a singer from Ontario.
I did not refer to "Disney characters".
I have the utmost compassion and respect for parents with children with unexplained behavioural regression and gut problems.
I very little respect for people who make utterly unsubstantiated claims about causative links between vaccination and autism, claims of the sort which have led to now nearly 700 cases of measles in Wales (last count 693).
I would also like to point out that I have provided a large amount of documentary evidence to back up my claims, something I singularly fail to see you doing.
Cheers.

Beachcomber - do you know which version of the MMR vaccine was in common use when Wakefield was doing his research?

Personally, I don't think that the lack of take up now is due to Wakefield - I think people are suspicious because they know they are not being told the whole story, as sieglinde points out.

and i expect people to have alternative explanations when they reject the one staring them in the face that has been recorded thousands of times.

a while back it was denied that there was a relationship between autism and gut issues. now this is accepted fact.

a while back it was denied that asd rates have increased. now this is accepted as fact.

a while back it was denied that casein and gluten free diets help many children with autism. now this is accepted as fact.

a while back it was denied that vitamin b12 could help these children. now it is accepted as fact.

indeed everything that wakefield et al and the parents have said has been HOTLY denied only to accepted as self-evident fact later.

and the court concessions are mounting.

combined measles vaccines have a poor safety record. the single measles vaccine has a much better safety record. im afraid these are undeniable facts.

That is not a fact, it is completely untrue. Show us research that single vaccines are safer! Show research that the actual disease has less risks than the Urabe strain!
The only people who recommend single vaccines are those making money out of selling them.

Bruffin - you can turn your last statement round. Show us research that single vaccines are less safe. If the public had more confidence in them then that would be a good reason for reintroducing them. Big pharma would be kept happy - they would still get oodles of $$$$$$.

beach' your logic is backwards.

When more evidence turns up, then the scientists do indeed change their conclusion (if it is warranted).

That is why you can be reasonably secure in the idea that if any compelling evidence had actually turned up for an MMR - ASD link then this position too would have been reversed.

But none has and so it hasn't.

The fact that other positions have indeed changed should reassure you that if there was due cause this one would have changed too. But it hasn't.

You can"t say that the MMR has a poor safety record without backing it up with hard facts. So, again, stats, please.

bruffin.

three out of four of the developed MMR vaccines are not used because they are unsafe. the government and the manufacturers admit that they are not safe.

this is absolute fact.

do you have any idea how much it costs to develop a vaccine? they dont withdraw them on a whim, i can tell you that.

combined MMR vaccines have a bad saftey record. millions has been spent developing them and only onevremains on the (western) market.

and it is the subject of litigation with damages being awarded in several cases.

anyone who is not in a state of denial can see that the combined MMR's safety record stinks.

Also the gut - ASD thing and others.

Science went from a position of

'There is no evidence to support this' to 'there is now evidence to support this'

They weren't wrong in the first position and then flip flopped, they were correct at all times.

The ASD - MMR thing has gone from

'there is no evidence to support this' to 'there is now evidence that this connection does not exist'

When medicine says no evidence exists for a link they aren't saying there is no link....they are saying there is no evidence for one.

They also sometimes say there is evidence that there is no link. This is the current situation with ASD - MMR.

They are not unsafe, new versions are just safer that is completely different Read my link about urabe strain versus jerrylyn and rubinio.
Its also not true that 3 out of 4 versions are no longer used. The Urabe strain is still used around the world, and guess what it has been used in the UK by clinics using singles instead of MMR, which you keep saying are safer.

Read the actual details rather than the headline scaremongering.

For what it is worth, I don't think MMR is safe, I think it is substantially safer than not having the MMR.

When fairy bring out new improved washing up liquid with better cleaning and fewer side effects, does that mean they should never have sold the previous version?

One version of MMR was found to be better / have a lower rate of dangerous reactions than another. So of course they discontinue the least safe one. That has no impact on the 'safety' of the one that was kept.

All of them are hugely safer than risking measles.

Other things that are not safe include walnuts, washing up liquid, strawberries, formula milk, breast milk....etc etc.

Nothing is SAFE.

are people really asking me to provide safety stats on vaccines that have been withdrawn by governments because they were unsafe in order to accept that said vaccines have a bad safety record?!

the governments if several countries and the manufacturers admit that they are unsafe. although weirdly they also try to claim that MMRs have a good safety record!

a double think that plenty of posters here seem happy to hold.

the mental gymnastics are extraordinary.

Sieglinde, the single measles vaccine was available at the time of the press conference - it was withdrawn afterwards, despite all the media scaremongering about the MMR. Bad move!