To think Andrew Wakefield has blood on his hands for causing so much distrust over the MMR?

[chicaguapa]

That's it really. He's caused so much damage with his stupid little study. It was years ago, he was struck off, the study was discredited, but people still don't get the MMR because of it.

"Well I am firmly of the opinion that MMR is unsafe for a very small percentage of children"

I am not disagreeing, but why do you think this?

I am the sibling of a vaccine damage. I have posted our story before on mumsnet. My DC are unvaccinated. MMR isn't the only vaccine that has caused problems in the past and ASD isn't the only outcome. People don't want to hear it though, ostrich springs to kind. Vaccine damaged children are seen as collateral damage, it's ok as long as the herd is protected. Well after what happened in my family pritecting 'the herd' will never come before protecting my children.
people go on about the complications of the diseases and say have you ever seen them. Well I would say have you ever seen what seeing your child collapse in the GP surgery after vaccination does to a parent, what the following diagnosis of GBS and then CIDP and brain damage does to a child who before vaccination was developing normally. Seen what that choice to vaccinate after being berated by the GP for putting your child at risk by delaying, and then having a lifetime of 1:1 24 hour care to give to your child when you go against your instinct does to a parent. I see it daily, my mum was unsure as my other sibling suffered a fit after the whooping cough jab, she was wary and was pushed into vaccinating. Walk a mile in her shoes then call me scum.
Whois, just FUCK OFF. That is all.

*protecting

Our surgery wouldn't tick that my dc had been vaccinated either HappyMummy, despite being sent proof from the paediatrician after each injection and after being sent proof of their immunity following blood tests. I also went in and showed them proof after one of many letters insisting that my children needed the MMR, and it is still on their record that ds1 is unvaccinated. They finally amended ds2's record after he had a rash that they thought may be rubella.

In general, I feel lucky to have such a good surgery available to my family, but their reluctance to help us over the MMR only served to make me think I did the right thing.

Dementethousewife-nobody has said that there are not side effects to everything- sometimes serious ones. And as far as I am aware, nobody has said that the weren't some very serious side effects to early whooping cough vaccines- there is someone in my extended family who has such damage, and who has been paid compensation.

However, this thread is, I though, about MMR, and the specific allegations about its safety.

I have read a few articles by heartbroken parents telling stories of a happy healthy child and then the MMR and child is never the same again. Well anybody could say or believe that this is just a coincidence. But I don't think anybody would even suggest those parents are telling lies. So I think everyone must make their own decision over this and I wouldn't dream of telling anyone what to do.

Of course I am not saying in any way I'm right. But I'm just not convinced of the safety of MMR.

No childhood vaccines in the UK contain mercury.

Can anyone who opted for the single jabs explain why giving the same 3 vaccines separately is any safer than giving them all together?

Thing is, in my family, there was already distrust of the MMR 'link' to Autism long before the Wakefield report came out, as my Dbro had a serious reaction to his first MMR, regressed afterwards, and was dxd with Autism all before the report came out.

(My Dbro is 22 now, and was put on a waiting list for dx at 5)

My DD was just the age to have the MMR as the report came out. As I had already decided, based on my Dbro, NOT to give her the MMR, obviously the Wakefield report didn't help that decision.

However, when DD was 4yo, we actually had an outbreak of measles locally to us. I had DS1 as a newborn, too young to immunise, and I was scared of possible complications from measles for both of them.

As DD had already been noted by the Paed to have 'Autistic traits', her Autism was already evident by this point, so I thought long and hard, and decided that it had been coincidental that my Dbro had regressed at the same time as he had his first MMR jab.

So I decided to get it done for DD. DD had her first MMR jab at 4y3mo, and her booster jab at 5y6mo.

DD has Autism, but it wasn't caused by the MMR, and I don't think it was made worse either.

I still believed that the vaccination schedule they had at the time was too much of an assault on the immune system, given immune issues in the family, so I decided to split the vaccinations and do them, but on a much slower timescale.

DS1 had his first MMR at 3yo, and his booster at 4y6mo. At the time, I had no issues with his development. It's only now he's almost 11yo that issues are becoming apparent. (More Aspie than classic Autism).

DS2 had obvious immune issues AND Autistic traits from a very young age. I slowed his vaccination schedule down LOTS compared to normal, because his development was already slower than normal.

Every time he had ANY immunisation, his development regressed.

I got his first MMR done when he was 4y9mo, just before he started school, and he had his booster at 5y5mo.

He had a regression after each one.

He has 'Autistic traits' and is now, at 9y3mo, on a waiting list for a full dx.

DS3 is currently showing multiple Autistic traits at 2y2mo, and us being assessed for Autism next month. He still hasn't had his first MMR, and I am in no hurry to give it to him in case he regresses, as his development is severely delayed anyway.

If it gets to him starting school, I will ensure that he has had his first MMR just before he goes to school, and his booster a year to 18 months later.

I still feel, despite the discreditation of the Wakefield report, that in DC's with a family history of Autism / gut issues / immune issues, that the current vaccination schedule is too much too soon.

I also feel that I would give a vaccination against measles far sooner if it was available affordable as a single jab.

I would be far happier giving my DC's single jabs NOT all at once than the MMR.

I think I was in the last year group at school that wasn't given the MMR and had separate jabs, as I know I had a rubella jab at 14, whereas my friends a year younger didn't.

There have been no studies done comparing Autism rates in the vaccinated population as compared to Autism rates in the unvaccinated population. You need to ask yourself why...

However, in the case of my DC's, the MMR did NOT 'cause' their Autism. It DID, though, cause a regression each time in my DS2, despite the far later vaccination age. I fear for my DS3 for this reason.

(DD and DS1 have different fathers to DS2 & DS3, who have the same father as each other, but different to the older two. DD's Autism presents slightly differently to DS2 & DS3's.)

I fully believe that my DC's would have Autism with or without the MMR, but I DO believe that in SOME cases of DC's with certain presentations of Autistic behaviours, the MMR can cause regressions...

But that wasn't always the case noblegiraffe. DS1 was given DTwP which did contain mercury (reacted rather badly to it as well, or maybe the Hib which was given at the same time). Had ds2 been vaccinated he would also have been given DTwP. And ds3 would have been one of the last of the mercury jab containing cohort. DS2 and DS3 are still at primary school so it wasn't that long ago that it was changed.

The UK was very late switching to the non mercury containing DTaP when compared to places like Australia and the States & most of Europe iirc.

Can anyone who opted for the single jabs explain why giving the same 3 vaccines separately is any safer than giving them all together?

Personally, no, I can't. Most of what I researched at the time has gone out of my head, but considering that back then there were valid reasons to have concerns about giving all three together, the programme of single vaccines we were offered seemed a no brainer.

We were able to give the measles jab first, and at the same time as MMR would have been done, so I felt I was protecting my children from the illness that was the biggest risk for them. They then had the mumps vac six months later, and then six months after that they had the rubella. We were offered a blood test to check their immunity, so if any of the vaccines hadn't worked, we could give them a second jab of just the one they needed, which would have been done earlier than the second MMR. If they hadn't been immune to any of the three, they would have gained protection earlier than they would have done if they has waited for the time the pre school 'booster' came around. They also wouldn't have had to have vaccines injected into them that they didn't need, as the vast majority of children don't need the second MMR, it is only done to protect the small number of children that don't gain immunity the first time round.

For those reasons, I felt singles would be safer for my children, but I realise that doesn't mean they are neccesarily safer.

As it turned out, ds2 did not gain immunity to rubella on his first injection, so he was protected from that particular illness at an earlier age than he would have been if he had not gained immunity from the MMR, and he didn't have to have the measles and mumps vaccines injected into him a second time needlessly.

County there have been studies comparing vaccinated and vaccinated. There was a recent polish study and the unvvaccinated had higher rates of autisms as did single vaccines.
Frombonne has done a lot of work on autism and mmr.

There is study after study looking at autism rates in mmr and those who have not had MMr. There has been no study making the link. In Japan the rates of autism went up them they withdrew mmr.

Oh an wrt to thimerosal. It may still be found in non-routine jabs given to infants and children. I'd want to check the ingredients in a flu jab for example, as some brands do use thimerosal. I don't particularly see the point in giving thimerosal if there's a non-thimerosal alternative although each to their own.

I'm scum for waiting to give my DC's the MMR due to having immune issues and Autism and positive regressions directly following the MMR in my family?

I'm scum for trying to do the best for MY DC's?

Well, thank you for that observation...

What about a study like this? Too small? voices.yahoo.com/new-study-shows-link-between-mmr-vaccine-autism-11786825.html

My wider family is rife with autoimmune conditions, and I currently have two cousins whose symptoms doctors find baffling. One cousin's condition is potentially linked, according to our local GP, to chemicals used to spray crops 20+ years ago.

My son is twenty months and I am being urged by my doctor to vaccinate by two, but I am terrified that, if not autism, the MMR is going to trigger some awful autoimmune reaction. My son already had a terrible reaction to the rotavirus vaccine at 12 weeks (we're in the US) and since then, we have gone one-by-one with vaccines, mostly without any incident, although I swear that his whole demeanour becomes a little strange and vacant for a good week after the Dtap.

Can anyone who opted for the single jabs explain why giving the same 3 vaccines separately is any safer than giving them all together

For children who already have a quirky immune system or who have had a reaction to other combined jabs then why shouldnt parents be given that choice.

It is the route I chose and found it to be much and gentler less traumatic for Dd3's little body. The jabs were well spaced.

She does have Asd btw but has never had a major regression.

This is an interesting response to the recent BMJ paper on autism and vaccination

It's a bit heavy duty, but I think his second to last paragraph is important., namely his type of study misses the point entirely that children with autism are physiologically different than neurotypical children

DS2 is about to have testing for mitochondrial disorders later this month. DS2 and DD are very likely, given the fact that their presentation is the same, to have the same issue as DS3. Therefore I will NOT be made to feel like 'scum' for vaccinating my DC's far later than the usual schedule.

stopgap - that is not a new study as the article suggests, it dates back to 2002 and i suspect it wasnt very valid at the time.

Info for anyone who is actually interested
info on how immune system works particularly babies

IOM Adverse Effects of Vaccines and Causality

polish study

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Are you getting that done on the NHS couthy? DS1's neurologist was happy to do it a few years ago but we decided against (at the time we were completely unable to do even basic medical procedures with ds1 - he had a history of abandoned x-rays - despite 5 people holding him down, failed dental checks and needing lots of bodies for a blood test). He's a lot more cooperative now, and I would be interested to hear what the procedure involves. I presume it would still be a GA.

Three neuros have said he has enough signs that mitochondrial dysfunction might be an issue in his case. He's too old for the very specialist urine test they developed in the States at the Kennedy Krieger Institute (and anyway we couldn't get him there - that would involve a plane).

But his paediatric neurologist said he was happy for us to go back to him if we felt he would benefit from a mitochondrial test.

saintlyjimjams I never said that people are likely to knowingly harm their kids in order to protect other people's children. Decisions about vaccination are decisions made under uncertainty and involving risk. People are more than willing to accept a tiny risk of side-effects to their children for the benefit of vaccination (i.e. massive reduction in the risk of serious and life-threatening diseases) both to their children and all the other children who benefit from herd immunity.

And rightly so.

Yep, NHS, as I can't afford to go the private single jabs route.

I get all my DC's immunised, but I believe that doing the MMR at the same time as the Men C AND a DTwP booster is just too much for children with possible mito disorder.

So I slow the schedule down.

The GP & the HV don't like it, but it is MY choice.

Also, with DS3, I was advised not to give him the MMR until we were sure that his severe allergies didn't involve egg (my PCT doesn't offer the other one). Once that was ascertained, I was advised by the Paed to wait for DS3 until after his genetic microarray was back. That came back, but now I'm being advised to wait because of possible mito issues.

Why wouldn't I wait when the Paed is advising me to AND I have misgivings anyway?!