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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that this is another stupid example of how religion has a crazy amount of influence in everyone's eyes?

139 replies

Thistledew · 05/04/2013 15:34

DP and I are atheist. We are having a civil wedding ceremony. The rules of a civil ceremony are that we are not allowed to have any religious references as part of the ceremony.

One of my favourite pieces of music of all time, by my favourite composer Handel is a piece that he wrote for the Coronation of King George I .

I have just had a call from our Registry Office to say that just because this piece of music mentions the words 'priest' 'god' 'amen' and 'hallelujah' I am not allowed to have it played at my wedding ceremony.

AIBU to think that if it were not for the stupid influence that religion has in our society, this piece of music would be judged solely on its artistic merit and the lyrics would have no more significance than Ba Ba Blacksheep?

FYI the lyrics in full are:

Zadok the priest,
And Nathan the Prophet,
Anointed Soloman, King.

And all the people
Rejoiced.

And all the people (Alleluia)
Rejoiced, and said
God save the King!
Long Live the King!
God Save the King
May the king live forever,
Alleluia, Alleluia, Amen.
Amen, Amen, Amen, Alleluia Amen.

God save the king,
long live the king,
may the king live forever,
amen amen alleluia alleluia amen,
Amen, May the king live,
may the king live,
forever, forever forever,
Alleluia Amen, Amen.
Alleluia Alleluia Amen.
Amen Amen, Amen Amen,
Alleluia Amen.

Long live the king,
God save the king,
long live the king,
may the king live,
may the kinge live,
forever, forever, alleluia alleluia amen,
amen, amen, amen alleluia amen,

Alleluia, alle amen, alleluia!

OP posts:
EllieArroway · 05/04/2013 19:59

She's not saying that, LRD - she's saying that it's a piece of music that doesn't ONLY have a religious frame of reference anymore.

JamieandtheMagicTorch · 05/04/2013 20:00

THIstledew

What is your venue? I have to say, i would find ZAdoc a bit overblown in register office

JamieandtheMagicTorch · 05/04/2013 20:01

....... But it's not my wedding Grin

DonDrapersAltrEgoBigglesDraper · 05/04/2013 20:01

YANBU in the slightest, I don't think.

But then, the Baroque composers were disproportionately all about God. Grin

We walked out to one of the movements from Handel's Music for the Royal Fireworks, the Bourrée. It was lovely and celebratory. And it isn't a religious piece (marks the end of a war).

But - I know how it is when you have your heart set on a particular piece that has special meaning.

LittleFeileFooFoo · 05/04/2013 20:03

I am confused, how does the State know or check what music you're playing? Who would tell them that you'd had this music? does someone from the registry office attend every ceremony? would you not be married if you disobeyed?

obviously I am not from the UK, and did in fact get married outside at my house, so could have anything i liked

Original poster
Thistledew · 05/04/2013 20:03

Shaggers - what do you think I am having as my entrance music Wink?

Zadok is immense, but that is why I love it. The hairs on the back of my neck stand up every time I listen to it.

OP posts:
UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea · 05/04/2013 20:05

Snap ThistleDew, great minds Smile

saycheeeeeese · 05/04/2013 20:06

But surely such an immense song would sound a bit out of place in a registry office? In a huge cathedral maybe. . . I know nothing we say will put you off it, hope you get something else.

Original poster
Thistledew · 05/04/2013 20:06

LittleFeileFooFoo - If you want to have an informal marriage blessing in your own house than you can pick whatever the heck you like. If you want to invite your guests to witness your actual marriage ceremony- where you sign the register, you have to have an official registrar present and you have to tell them your music, readings and any vows you want to say in advance.

OP posts:
FairPhyllis · 05/04/2013 20:08

Little All civil ceremonies are conducted by a registrar, who is a public servant, and they check the music choice beforehand. You can't use your own officiant.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 05/04/2013 20:28

ellie - mmm, I think saying it doesn't 'only' have a religious frame of reference is rather like saying that if she and others ignore the religious frame of reference, that should be ok. Well, it may be, but it can hardly cancel it out. And it is disrespectful to act as if it can.

Personally I think we should have civil marriages with no religious trappings - the legal side done and dusted, then we can all have whatever ceremony we want separately, with whatever music and so on we like.

But because of the idiocy of the system, we have a strongly religiously-influenced civil marriage which gets strict about anything that is religious in origin. Confused It is odd.

LittleFeileFooFoo · 05/04/2013 20:47

ok thank you for the clarification!

EllieArroway · 05/04/2013 21:00

I think you've made the OP's point, LRD - that religion has an unnecessary amount of influence if you think it's "disrespectful" to accept a piece of music on your terms rather than it's original, religious meaning.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 05/04/2013 21:08

Mmm. I see what you're saying.

I do agree about 98% with the OP - it seems daft to me that there are these rules.

But, if there are, it is also daft not to acknowledge that this piece of music is religious.

To be fair, it's not as if that's just the original meaning. You can't fail to notice the lyrics and the title.

breatheslowly · 05/04/2013 21:09

We had Ode to Joy at our civil marriage ceremony. Beethoven wrote this as music to a poem which had a religious content, though it was in German. The registrar let us have it - we only had it as an instrumental though. Presumably the restrictions on religious music only go as far as the individual registrar's own cultural education. We also had the rather naff "Apache blessing" reading which if it is actually an Apache blessing is probably also considered religious.

I think the no religious content is probably to enable religious groups to keep some of their competitive edge, particularly church weddings. I am sure many people would like to have elements of a church wedding, but not have a priest say random and sometimes inappropriate stuff in the middle of it.

LittleFeileFooFoo · 05/04/2013 21:10

So can the registrar have some discretion in applying these rules? I mean, of course it is their job, but at the same time, it seems like if it's up to them to determine if your music is religious, wouldn't there be some differences in decisions between registrars?

I find this completely fascinating, as we don't have these parameters where I am!

DoJo · 05/04/2013 21:11

I'm surprised that people have had so much trouble with secular music at religous ceremonies - my SIL had a song by the White Stripes at hers. Perhaps that's at the priest's discretion and I think the register office rule is probably applied in the same way.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 05/04/2013 21:14

I guess they must have discretion - my cousin's wife was told she couldn't put out booklets with 'order of service' written on them as it wasn't a service. But I've been to shitloads of registry-office weddings with the apache blessing and one with the bit about Love from Corinthians.

The whole thing is very bizarre.

TigerseyeMum · 05/04/2013 21:17

We got married last year and I was shocked at the 'ban' on any religious material at the ceremony. Frankly, there are few pieces of music that are not linked, somehow, to religion.

Music is music, and to some a piece may be about god but to others it may be a favourite song, or have other personal meanings.

It's ridiculous that we have to legislate to keep religion out of our personal wedding ceremonies. Yes it is giving it power. I am atheist - an absence of belief therefore it does not make sense that I have to give religion so much credence and consideration. I'd like to be free to make my own choices, not be dictated to.

saycheeeeeese · 05/04/2013 21:22

I wanted Abba "I do I do I do I do I do" but minister said no.. Gutted :)

LorettaMasonPotts · 05/04/2013 21:23

My friend wasn't allowed Shania Twain's From this moment at her registry register office wedding because of the lines

You're the reason I believe in love
And you're the answer to my prayers from up above

Religious reference apparently.

BegoniaBampot · 05/04/2013 21:37

Know someone who walked done the isle in the Catholic Church dressed from head to foot in black to The WaterBoys 'Whole Of The Moon'. Seems the registry office is being a bit precious.

FairPhyllis · 05/04/2013 21:48

It's understandable that people do get grumpy if the rules are applied inconsistently, whether in a register office or in a church. Banning that Robbie Williams Angel song from civil ceremonies just because it had the word 'angel' in it seemed a bit daft imo.

OTOH, if the rule is there, however annoying it is, I don't think you can be too surprised if the person in charge does choose to apply it. And it cuts both ways - there are definitely Anglican churches that aren't wild about the march from Lohengrin because it's from an opera. Yet I had friends who had the full sung version of it at their church wedding.

I guess the reason for the ban is because that's what it took at the time to get the legislation passed so there could be civil ceremonies at all. IIRC it is quite an old piece of legislation - 1830s? Getting angry with current day religious people is missing the point. You have to look at the context in which civil marriage was legislated for.

JassyRadlett · 05/04/2013 21:51

Anyone who believes that the rules around civil ceremonies and the ban on religious content was dreamt up by the government of the day in a vacuum is rather naive.

There was, predictably, a large amount of lobbying by churches and faith groups. This is the result of the influence of religion on the state. And with every suggested change to the regulations, there has been more lobbying, as well as action by the bishops in the Lords.

There is no separation of church and state in this country.

Original poster
Thistledew · 05/04/2013 21:54

Religious ministers have the discretion to allow as much secular stuff in their ceremonies as they want.

Civil Registrars are forbidden by law to allow any religious references in the ceremonies they officiate.

I don't see why it can't be that everyone is entitled to be married by the basic legal words and the signing of the register, but that any other aspects of the ceremony are at the discretion of the individual registrar. If you request anything too weird or obnoxious, the registrar would be entitled to refuse to perform the ceremony, but on the whole, guessing that registrars actually like performing marriage ceremonies for people, I would think that most would be happy to comply with any reasonable request.

OP posts: