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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that this is another stupid example of how religion has a crazy amount of influence in everyone's eyes?

139 replies

Thistledew · 05/04/2013 15:34

DP and I are atheist. We are having a civil wedding ceremony. The rules of a civil ceremony are that we are not allowed to have any religious references as part of the ceremony.

One of my favourite pieces of music of all time, by my favourite composer Handel is a piece that he wrote for the Coronation of King George I .

I have just had a call from our Registry Office to say that just because this piece of music mentions the words 'priest' 'god' 'amen' and 'hallelujah' I am not allowed to have it played at my wedding ceremony.

AIBU to think that if it were not for the stupid influence that religion has in our society, this piece of music would be judged solely on its artistic merit and the lyrics would have no more significance than Ba Ba Blacksheep?

FYI the lyrics in full are:

Zadok the priest,
And Nathan the Prophet,
Anointed Soloman, King.

And all the people
Rejoiced.

And all the people (Alleluia)
Rejoiced, and said
God save the King!
Long Live the King!
God Save the King
May the king live forever,
Alleluia, Alleluia, Amen.
Amen, Amen, Amen, Alleluia Amen.

God save the king,
long live the king,
may the king live forever,
amen amen alleluia alleluia amen,
Amen, May the king live,
may the king live,
forever, forever forever,
Alleluia Amen, Amen.
Alleluia Alleluia Amen.
Amen Amen, Amen Amen,
Alleluia Amen.

Long live the king,
God save the king,
long live the king,
may the king live,
may the kinge live,
forever, forever, alleluia alleluia amen,
amen, amen, amen alleluia amen,

Alleluia, alle amen, alleluia!

OP posts:
Original poster
Thistledew · 05/04/2013 16:28

I think it is clear that the driving force behind the prohibition on the use of music or readings with any religious connotations comes from religious groups.

In this 2004 Consultation by Registrars the following number of responses were received:

Local Authority 19
Regn Representative Association 2
Registratrion Officers (individuals & Groups and Registration Managers) 45
Member of Public 14
Religious organisations / individuals 45
Member of Parliament 1
Special Interest Group 5
131

Paragraph 23 is telling:

"The religious organisations who responded were unanimous that no readings from religious texts should be allowed, even if they did not directly refer to a deity. The Catholic Bishops Conference, for example, considered that if religious texts were used, ?through secular use their particular religious meaningfulness can be diminished?. The Church of England would wish to exclude ?readings from recognised religious texts which are foundational to the Church, a denomination or faith community and such as would form part of its religious services (eg readings from the Bible, the Torah and similar)?."

OP posts:
whistleahappytune · 05/04/2013 16:29

Thistle, many churches (like mine) won't allow music that isn't sacred music at weddings or funerals. And now I learn that registry offices forbid sacred music at theirs.

I think the only thing that should be banned is bad music.

Handel is my favourite composer, so I really sympathise. Zadok is a splendid piece, and I absolutely understand why you'd want it at your wedding. To you it isn't religious music. Unfortunately, I don't think the registar office will budge on this.

Could I, at the risk of suggesting something you've already thought of and dismissed, offer "Endless Pleasure" from Handel's opera "Semele"? It's a great aria. And it's joyful.

Have a lovely wedding and all the best to you.

AuroraAlfresco · 05/04/2013 16:31

That's fascinating, Thistledew. Why the actual fuck do they get to legislate on what happens at your wedding, when you have no belief in their god or any others?

It's an outrageous example of religious privilege.

AuroraAlfresco · 05/04/2013 16:33

What's next - atheists not being allowed to download and play religious music in their homes, for fear of offence?

Fuck that. Rebel against it. I'm starting to wonder whether I should get married now, purely in order to challenge this! Grin

cantspel · 05/04/2013 16:33

But the op clearly didn't know it was part of the gospel and so now she knows why would she want the gospel being sang at her wedding?
Regardless as to whether or not she likes the tune.

LeeCoakley · 05/04/2013 16:34

What happens if you get married in a hotel, do the same rules apply? I didn't know the rules were made up by taking religious leaders views into consideration.

worldgonecrazy · 05/04/2013 16:34

YAB(S)U, it's the rules that the civil wedding has to be completely secular. Some Registrars even banned Angels by Robbie Williams when that was a popular wedding song.

Have a handfasting* - that way you can have whatever music you want, then just visit the Registry Office to do the legal bit and treat it as you would a visit to a solicitor.

You're also not allowed alcohol to be served during the civil ceremony, and it's not allowed in rooms where licensed weddings are being held.

The rules are crazy. I'm British but I can't legally marry anyone in England and Wales, but I could in Scotland and America.

MissAnnersley · 05/04/2013 16:35

'What's next - atheists not being allowed to download and play religious music in their homes, for fear of offence?'

Think you are over egging the pudding somewhat Aurora but nice try. Grin

DisorganisednotDysfunctional · 05/04/2013 16:35

I'm a bit mystified. People get married in civil ceremonies but they may hold all sorts of views -- there are loads of different religions and beliefs. Why can't people have any music they want? As Thistledew says, music isn't a religious service.

I've never heard of this before. It's a bit over the top, this prohibition. So you couldn't have Annie Lennox singing "There must be an angel playing with my heart" either? Or David Bowie with "The Laughing Gnome"? That would be paganism, surely?

Frosty the Snowman, anyone?

BigBoobiedBertha · 05/04/2013 16:40

Yabu. You want to gave your cake and eat it too. You want a service free from religion and yet you get angry because religion isn't allowed. Well, that is tough. This isn't the fault of religion and its influence on society, quite the opposite. This is about those seeking to remove religion from the marriage service and not using commonsense.

Have rhe music played at the reception or some place else and leave the religious stuff out of you civil service.

DisorganisednotDysfunctional · 05/04/2013 16:41

I fancy the way Americans get married in films in their garden or at a beauty spot with their own vows & any old music they want.

What gets me is that if you think about it, stacks of popular music could if you were being picky be claimed to promote some sort of belief.

The theme from Ghostbusters could be picked on as an example, ferchrisakes! It's a song which assumes and promotes the existene of ghosts, which surely must breach the non-faith rules?

I have a certain amount of sympathy for churches and popular music. I once heard "My Way" at a funeral which I thought was v tasteless. It's an anthem very popular with drinking alcoholics, ime.

ReallyTired · 05/04/2013 16:53

I think its awful you can't choose the music you want and have a civil cermony. Even if you are athetists its OK to like church music Handel. Many athetists love beautiful music, art and arteticture done by christians, muslims, Hindus , jews or Buddists. Not believing in god does not turn someone into an uncultured philistine.

I feel a civil service should allow any music as civil services are available to anyone in the UK.

AKissIsNotAContract · 05/04/2013 16:56

I once heard "My Way" at a funeral which I thought was v tasteless. It's an anthem very popular with drinking alcoholics, ime.

My Way was played at my grandad's funeral. . He loved Frank Sinatra and certainly did things his way. I had no idea it was associated with alcoholics, it's hardly Chumbawamba FFS.

Original poster
Thistledew · 05/04/2013 17:01

The people saying that I want a ceremony free from religion are missing the point somewhat. I am not a follower of any religion because I do not hold those beliefs. It would be hypocritical of me to get married according to any religious ceremony, not to mention hugely disrespectful of the people that do follow those religions. That is the reason that I am not getting married in any church, mosque or temple. What my other beliefs are is entirely a matter for me. I might happen to believe that Zadok the Priest and Nathan the profit did in fact anoint Soloman King. There is some historical evidence for this being true.

Why then do other people get to have the power keep this belief to themselves and to prevent me referencing it in my own celebration?

OP posts:
EllieArroway · 05/04/2013 17:03

I'm a bit torn on this one, I have to admit.

On the one hand, it's just music but on the other, it's very important that there is strong distinction between a secular marriage and a religious one.

A secular one MUST remain entirely neutral on the issue of religion, since that's what it means - and to start allowing religious music and readings would violate the secular nature of the ceremony.

There's no question, I'm afraid, that your piece of music does have a religious basis so the registry office are correct in telling you that you can't have it.

And while I can see that quite a lot of religious types would prefer "their" music not be used for civil ceremonies, that is beside the point. The main point is that the neutral, secular nature of a civil ceremony would be violated by religious music and/or readings.

Do you know, by the way, that The Wedding March was taken from an opera and is not religious - so could be played at a registry office? Not that I'm saying you would want it - but some of the things people think are religious actually are not.

DumSpiroSpero · 05/04/2013 17:08

I think YABU under the circumstances but do appreciate that it's a pita.

Fwiw we had a church ceremony and were not allowed any non religious readings which still rankles with me 10 years (to the day Grin later). Although we're Christians there is an awful lot of fabulous non religious poetry written about love and marriage that it seems a shame to 'ignore'.

How far along with the planning are you? If you had a very low key civil ceremony to cover the legalities, you could have a humanist celebration after where I presume you could have whatever you like in the way of readings and music.

stressyBessy22 · 05/04/2013 17:12

The churches were consulted on civil ceremonies, they did not and would not be in a position to dictate

Big difference

Op you sound as though you want to have your cake and eat it!

EuroShaggleton · 05/04/2013 17:15

I'm a bit torn on this one as well. To me (as an athiest), saying "God save the king" is the equivalent of saying "Unicorns save the king". So it seems ridiculous that I would be permitted the latter but not the former. The simple fact is that religion was a huge part of life in Europe for centuries and permeated culture far beyond the church itself, so music and art are heavily influenced by Christianity. This rule basically excludes the vast majority of centuries' worth of music and literature from weddings. But I am happy that there is a way to have a religion-free wedding.

On a separate note: "You're also not allowed alcohol to be served during the civil ceremony, and it's not allowed in rooms where licensed weddings are being held."

This can't be right. I've been to many weddings (including my own) where everything was in one room - the ceremony, then dinner and the drunken party afterwards!

cumfy · 05/04/2013 17:17

Bribe the fuckers. :o

KansasCityOctopus · 05/04/2013 17:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheCraicDealer · 05/04/2013 17:19

And nobody is stopping you from enjoying anything. They are stopping your from using a religious piece of music during a civil service.

Agree. I mean I know you say that it's not a religious piece of music, but I'm assuming that this is the same Solomon that features quite heavily in the bible, being, you know the writer of the book of wisdom, the King of Jerusalem, David's successor, etc. etc. etc. Pretty religious. I don't thing Handal picked him as a muse because Solomon rhymes with loads.

lashingsofbingeinghere · 05/04/2013 17:30

Have it sung in German? Then most people won't understand what it's about anyway .

JamieandtheMagicTorch · 05/04/2013 17:30

Preumably, religious groups are worried that if religious music is allowed in civil ceremonies then fewer people will want to marry in church.

Thistledew, i think I agree with you. It seems odd that you could pretend to be religious in order to get the pomp and ceremony you want for your wedding. Inidently, that piece is very grand.

Original poster
Thistledew · 05/04/2013 17:31

TheCraicDealer does Soloman's inclusion in the bible mean that he was not a real historical figure then? Or does it mean that he can only be referred to in a religious context by religious people?

OP posts:
EllieArroway · 05/04/2013 17:34

Alleluia literally means "Praise Yahweh" and Amen is an affirmation found in the NT. To be honest, I can quite see why it shouldn't be used in a civil ceremony.

That's not to say I don't feel some sympathy, OP. You should be able to have what you want. Unless you want all the religious types to say: "See! You do believe in God really or why would you have a song praising him at your wedding. Eh, eh?" - which they will.