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Original poster

to be sad that my DD has now passed gender discrimination 101?

406 replies

ICBINEG · 25/03/2013 14:02

My DD can now accurately pick out the boys and girls in her peer group (age 1-2). Presumably she has successfully identified that boys and girls are dressed differently/have their hair cut differently.

This is entirely due to adult imposed gender discrimination, as she a) isn't looking at them naked, b) can't possibly be detecting the very subtle actual differences in behaviour/appearance.

So lets hurry onto the next lesson:

Society expects girls and boys to behave differently and have different interests, strengths and weaknesses.

Before I could at least wonder if, when she saw in books that all the girls are doing different things to the boys, she might not realise which was which and specifically which group she was 'supposed' to be in. Now I know she will be learning exactly what is expected of her every time a tired old stereotype is rolled out.

OP posts:
RandallPinkFloyd · 26/03/2013 08:20

I get the feeling this thread is a complete waste of time OP.

From what I can see you aren't reading people's posts at all, just picking out the odd phrase to fight against.

A lot of posters have taken the time to make genuine observations and post thought provoking views. I've certainly learned things.

I don't think it's on that you are being so dismissive. If you actually read the whole thread properly you may see that it's not quite the you against the world situation you think it is.

Sticking so rigidly to I'm right and you're all stupid isn't a reasoned debate. What you're missing is several interesting and thought provoking viewpoints from people who's views are actually coming from the same side of the feminism argument as yours.

Refusing to see them or engage with them does not make them any less valid.

Original poster
ICBINEG · 26/03/2013 08:20

Boys are defined by their actions, girls by their looks.

hence In my line of work, for identical applications with a male or female name, the female version is considered 20% less employable, 20% less competent and 10% more likeable

and I could add that after interviews, female candidates are four times as likely to draw comments like 'I'm not sure she actually did the work' and 'she might just have had a good supervisor'.

We also have a massive issue with profile enhancement. A woman that pushes herself forward for promotion is labelled a little arrogant, ambitious etc. A man that pushes himself forward for promotion is also labelled a little arrogant, ambitious etc. but for men those are considered to be acceptable and even praise worthy attributes. Not so much for women.

In fact I would go so far as to say that around here ambitious is a compliment for a man and a criticism of a woman.....makes things a little tricky.

OP posts:
GirlOutNumbered · 26/03/2013 08:23

Illegal to wear trousers? Can you point me in the direction of that information please.... I don't live in Paris by the way.

Original poster
ICBINEG · 26/03/2013 08:23

randal I have a problem in that every time I read that pinkification of girls isn't an issue, I feel the urge to respond...

This means my resources are all tied up with getting annoyed with the 'of course you can't put boys in dresses...how would they climb trees' brigade.

Maybe you could summarize the good points I missed?

OP posts:
minouminou · 26/03/2013 08:23

^^Is the real battle. All this BS over pink, frills, make up and sparkly shoes is just the icing on a massive shitcake.

Freddiemisagreatshag · 26/03/2013 08:24

I have two girls. One is an utter tomboy. Refuses to wear pink. Lives in navy/black/beige/red/blue. Wears boys clothes (which I buy for her quite happily)

The other wears pinks. And dresses. And sparkly shit. Which again, I buy quite happily.

Two girls. Both reared in the same house with the same influences.

They are just different. It's just how they are.

minouminou · 26/03/2013 08:26

It's on Wiki, Girl.
Can't be arsed doing links on my iPhone, but keywords illegal women wear trousers.

Original poster
ICBINEG · 26/03/2013 08:27

freddie that's great - and kids are all different.

But the pay gap stats don't lie.

If I apply for a job I would be well advised to 'male up' my name if I want to be taken seriously....

OP posts:
Original poster
ICBINEG · 26/03/2013 08:28

Or do we think that one of the actual average differences between adult men and women is that men are on average more competent and women are on average more likeable?

OP posts:
minouminou · 26/03/2013 08:28

Exactly, Freddie. You just have to let them be.
DD is a massive girly on the surface.....but she's physically very tough and confident.

Meandmarius · 26/03/2013 08:28

ICBINEG so effectively what you are saying is that parents should go out of their way to dress their 1-2 year-olds in non-gender specific clothes? How is this helping their development in the long term? Don't get it.

Freddiemisagreatshag · 26/03/2013 08:29

Pay gap stats are not to do with wearing pink.

hamdangle · 26/03/2013 08:30

My DS1 wore a purple sparkly tutu everyday in nursery for years. I couldn't have cared less. He didn't catch the gay! Would you really stop your DS from wearing a dress if they wanted to, girl?

he always played with dolls too. It was only when he got a bit older that he realised that people would think it was weird which made me very sad. I remember when he was about five and he first started to realise that it wasn't what he was 'supposed' to be doing. I was at a party at a friend's house whose mother was a childminder. She had a blue box of boys toys and a pink box of girls toys. He ran straight over to the pink box really excitedly and then realised that he was being watched and stopped. He went over to the blue box then and picked out a car. He sat there staring at it for five minutes wondering what to do with it and then chucked it back in the box and got himself a Barbie instead.

We have another DS now and DH can't wait to buy cars and train sets. I've told him firmly that DS will play with what he wants. If that's cars then fine but if that's fairy wings then that's also fine!

GirlOutNumbered · 26/03/2013 08:30

What on earth do you do for a living? Male up your name? Honestly, it's like you live on a different planet to me! I have never had any issues due to my gender, and I often wear a dress to work!

I'm beginning to think this is a joke thread.

minouminou · 26/03/2013 08:30

I can't see how it'd impede their development. It might impede them picking up artificial ideas of gender.

Freddiemisagreatshag · 26/03/2013 08:31

My girly girl, at the age of 18 months, was quite capable of expressing a preference for pink sparkly clothes.

My tomboy was quite capable of expressing a preference for trackies and navy stuff.

I would have been "actively repressing their personalities" if I had made them wear something they didn't feel comfortable with.

BarredfromhavingStella · 26/03/2013 08:33

DS has long hair & is frequently refered to as pretty, doesn't bother me as he is very pretty-he's also quite obviously male.

Have DD & DS, if you look at photos of them at the same ages they look the same except DD is quite obviously a girl & DS is obviously a boy & not because they are dressed in a gender specific way...

minouminou · 26/03/2013 08:34

Sadly it's not a joke, Girl. It's great that you're unaffected, and I've not been affected too badly either, as I've always been a bit meeja, but lots of industries and sectors are rife with under the counter discrimination.
Ice, are you in academia/engineering/law?

BarredfromhavingStella · 26/03/2013 08:34

Also have to add that you win an award for the most bizarre OP I have ever read.

RandallPinkFloyd · 26/03/2013 08:35

Now you're just being rude and sarcastic.

As I said, it's actually been a very interesting thread, shame you intentionally missed it.

Freddiemisagreatshag · 26/03/2013 08:37

I also have 3 sons.

One is eminently more "likeable" than his girly sister.

Personality does not correlate to pinkness.

Original poster
ICBINEG · 26/03/2013 08:37

randal well I have rescanned the thread and the main counter points I can find are:

'But boys and girls are a bit different even as babies.'

yes they are. but no where near as massively different as their parents treat them - 6 month olds do not have a preference of flowers v. dinosaurs

'No matter how you treat them as babies, girls will end up being pink glitter fiends mostly engaged in clique forming activities with their best friends forever and boys will be tree climbing monkeys and into football'

I completely deny this. The evidence is that in non-patriarchal cultures this doesn't happen. In a cultural void the average behaviour of girls and boys and men and women would be very much closer than it is in a culture where stereotyping messages are everywhere you look

'there are more important things to worry about'

yes there are. just because I post about something doesn't mean it is the one and only thing I care about strangely.

'if you force your DD not to wear pink you will just push her in that direction'

My DD has a roughly equal number of clothes in all colours and dinosours v. flowers etc. I notice that noone is suggesting that by denying your DS's pink flowery clothes, that THEY will be pushed toward them in adult life though....

OP posts:
Original poster
ICBINEG · 26/03/2013 08:40

girl I work in academia in a science department.

The rate of female drop out massively exceed the male.

Identical job applications have been found to be 20% better when coming with a male name on the top.

Women are 4 times as likely to be queried on the validity of their work, their personal contribution to it and their competence.

OP posts:
Original poster
ICBINEG · 26/03/2013 08:41

freddie then why DO people think that on average a woman is more likeable and less competent when in reality they were identical?

OP posts:
minouminou · 26/03/2013 08:41

Thought so!

Not involved in it personally, but live in a famous university city and have academic chums.....
It's quite a horror show at times!

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