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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to be sad that my DD has now passed gender discrimination 101?

406 replies

ICBINEG · 25/03/2013 14:02

My DD can now accurately pick out the boys and girls in her peer group (age 1-2). Presumably she has successfully identified that boys and girls are dressed differently/have their hair cut differently.

This is entirely due to adult imposed gender discrimination, as she a) isn't looking at them naked, b) can't possibly be detecting the very subtle actual differences in behaviour/appearance.

So lets hurry onto the next lesson:

Society expects girls and boys to behave differently and have different interests, strengths and weaknesses.

Before I could at least wonder if, when she saw in books that all the girls are doing different things to the boys, she might not realise which was which and specifically which group she was 'supposed' to be in. Now I know she will be learning exactly what is expected of her every time a tired old stereotype is rolled out.

OP posts:
TolliverGroat · 25/03/2013 22:18

Child of our Time did an experiment when the children were about 10 months old where they dressed them in the "wrong" gender clothes and gave them for 10 minutes or so to one of the other parents to look after. Only one adult had any suspicion whatsoever. And all the parents responded to distress on the part of the child by attempting to distract them with a stereotypically gendered toy appropriate to their apparent gender, in some cases ignoring some very clear signs from the child that he/she wanted another toy.

DD2 is (by far) the smallest and most delicate-featured of my children, yet she's the one most often assumed (by adults) to be a boy (more so than DS, who at the same age with similar length hair would often be assumed to be a girl).

ElegantSufficiency · 25/03/2013 23:04

midnightmasquerader no it is nothing to do with her having had a slight preference for pink, for a while, a few years back now, actually, like 7 years ago now. Pink is nothing to do with the tightrope that young women today are facing.

I agree with the poster who said it's not discrimination it's telling the difference.

Sometimes people are allowed to be women. children are allowed to be girls Confused. That is not the issue, or the problem. The OP is bonkers if she thinks that her dd being able to distinguish a boy from a girl is a massive problem. It's not. So, OP doesn't like PINK? don't buy pink. Don't put her in Pink. Don't send her to Ballet. Send her to Play ball, and HOckey. And praise her bravery when she does abseiling, and running in blue jeans, trainers and a grey hoodie, and yet still still still still still daughters will come home from school giggling and laughing at the boys while the boys hold court. girls seek the approval of boys more than boys seek the approval of girls. Girls need the approval more. That is the problem our daughters will be facing as they grow up.

What ages are your daughters? Mine is 11. I can't helping thinking god almighty i wish I could go backto the days of thinking I had it all sorted because I was so clever and so smart that I didn't buy my dd a fairy costume (unless my son wanted one).

If you have tiny daughters, never mind about PINK. listen to what they want. if you're so determined that they not like pink then you have FUCKED UP ALREADY BECAUSE girls are being hardwired to people-please. "Mummy lets me choose my clothes, it's MY choice but she doesn't like me in pink, so i like blue! i do , I really do." years later in therapy she'll be realising "I can no longer draw a clear line between what I like and what people want me to like! I make people happy! or I try to!"

So for the third time and I hope the OP has the brains to absorb this pink is very small fry in the bigger picture, and presumably the bigger picture is raising a confident happy daughter who is proud of being a woman, who likes being a woman!

LadyBeagleEyes · 25/03/2013 23:09

Just skimmed through this thread and I award it as the daftest one I've ever read.
Congratulations OP.

exoticfruits · 26/03/2013 06:20

Wow, ElegantSufficiency - well put!
I hope OP listens.

exoticfruits · 26/03/2013 06:28

I should think that if you have a forceful mother with an 'agenda' like OP you learn to be a 'people pleaser' early on. You either fit in with 'my mummy says' or you fit in with it on the surface while being resentful underneath - it takes a brave DC to rebel. Why not just give space, listen to them, and support them. They are highly unlikely to tell you what they really want when you are tunnel visioned in the first place.

MrsLouisTheroux · 26/03/2013 06:41

I'll speak for myself as someone who grew up in the '70s when all was brown/ orange/ purple.
I love the colour pink, was attracted to frills and pretty things, loved heels and makeup. Non of these things featured in my childhood as my mother hated this stuff. I caught glimpses of it all from Aunties, friend's mums.
So, this stuff wasn't forced on me, I'm attracted to it instinctively.
Where do I fit in your theory?

ChristineDaae · 26/03/2013 06:47

My daughter has a grey and blue Elephant. Apparently that's a girl. So is his bright pink elephant friend... Not sure it matters all that much tbh.

SoupDreggon · 26/03/2013 07:09

And in contrast to Mrs LT, I grew up in the 70s as the youngest of three - two older brothers - and, despite my mum's best efforts to have the little girl she hoped for, she got a tom boy who hated pink (and still hates all things pink and frilly).

MrsLouisTheroux · 26/03/2013 07:27

There seem to be quite a number of people who say I hate pink, I don't like all of this girly frippery.
Well that's your choice as it was my mum's choice in the '70s.
But I loved pink and everything girly.
In forcing your gender neutral choices onto your DDs you are just as guilty as those who dress DD's in frills and head to toe pink. Whichever way, the child is conforming to the parent's tastes.

GirlOutNumbered · 26/03/2013 07:31

Completely agree MrsLouis.
My two boys have a range of clothing from black to purple, pink and orange. They choose what they want to wear each day and I couldn't give a toss if its a pink shirt or Dinosaur Tshirt.

Original poster
ICBINEG · 26/03/2013 07:36

WTAF?

I am bonkers if I don't like pink? Well that's okay because as I said already my DD wears pink exactly as much as any other colour.

So is that okay? I am not bonkers or forcing her to prefer blue?

OP posts:
minouminou · 26/03/2013 07:44

Apols if someone else has written this....only read the first page.
There was some research done a few years back which found that infants can tell the difference between the sexes of babies of the same age just by looking at their silhouettes.
Something to do with posture and proportion.
Yanbu to dislike artificial and restrictive gender (which IS more of a societal thing), but you can't fight the city hall of biology.

Original poster
ICBINEG · 26/03/2013 07:49

I am not bothered about her being able to tell from real differences that boys are boys etc.

I am bothered that the minor small differences between boys and girls aged 1-2 is blown out of all proportion by parents that are apparently extremely anxious that mistakes not be made about the gender of their child.

So yes, children can possibly tell anyway even if everyone shaved all the hair off and dresses kids in white. And yes there are some very small difference in boys and girls that age. What there are NOT are any serious difference in preferences for activities, interactions, colours, clothing or hair. Those are all reflections of the parents bias.

But what my DD sees is that there must be all of those...because every boy she sees is wearing a dinosaur T-shirt and every girl is wearing flowers.

In a few years this will turn into different behaviour expectations for the boys and girls (boys are allowed to run around and be wild - girls aren't).

In a few years more this has further devalued to girls are into fashion and boys are into sports. Girls are caring and nurturing and boys are active and aggressive.

Until finally we arrive at women bring up the kids and men having careers.

And yes I am perfectly aware (as a non-fashionable mum working in an almost exclusively male environment, whose favourite colour actually is blue as it happens, though god forbid I dress my DD mostly in MY favourite colour because that will apparently be fucking her right up for her whole life according to this thread) that there are people that buck the trend.

I am glad that there are a handful of people on this thread who 'allow' their boys to wear the odd item of pink and possibly even expect them not to exhibit un-lady-like behaviour.

BUT I have never seen a boy at our local soft play in a dress and I have never even seen one in pink.....oh and I have heard 'boys will be boys' and 'girls' don't do that/play with that' etc. etc. etc.

OP posts:
SoupDreggon · 26/03/2013 07:59

There seem to be quite a number of people who say I hate pink, I don't like all of this girly frippery.
Well that's your choice as it was my mum's choice in the '70s.
But I loved pink and everything girly.

Good for you Confused

I assume that's just a bad juxtaposition to my comment and not a dig at the fact I said I hated pink.

GirlOutNumbered · 26/03/2013 08:03

I let them wear what they want and play with whatever toy they like.

However, I will not let my boy wear a dress! Why would I? Why would anyone?

Throughout time and in all cultures men and women dress differently to define themselves.... I am at a loss as to why that is a problem.

Even David Beckham looked ridiculous in a dress.

Original poster
ICBINEG · 26/03/2013 08:07

Oh and while I am here - for all of you that have attempted to denounce me for only being sad about this one thing (on the extremely skimpy evidence that I bothered to post about it), or have said there are more important things to worry about well here is my list.

I am substantially more sad/worried that:

My mum is dying of cancer.

Things are shit at work due to lack of funding

In my line of work, for identical applications with a male or female name, the female version is considered 20% less employable, 20% less competent and 10% more likeable (so if you think it is okay to pigeon hole girls as friendly and boys as doers...reap your rewards right there).

So is that okay? I am not a single issue sad person...believe me.

OP posts:
Original poster
ICBINEG · 26/03/2013 08:08

girl as long as you also wouldn't let your girl wear a dress then that's fine.

If you think dresses are okay for girls but not for boys then you are part of the problem.

OP posts:
Original poster
ICBINEG · 26/03/2013 08:09

girl also I have no problem with men and women dressing themselves however they like. I have a problem with dressing babies/young toddlers differently to define them because the parent shouldn't be defining the child...that is for them to do.

OP posts:
GirlOutNumbered · 26/03/2013 08:10

ICBINEG - Do you never wear a dress?
What do you think would be acceptable attire for a man and woman?

Original poster
ICBINEG · 26/03/2013 08:12

girl It is not about women v. men (who actually are different shapes and have formed their own opinions about gender identity etc.)

It is about toddlers who aren't different shapes and should be left to form their own identity...not have the parents identity forced on them.

OP posts:
minouminou · 26/03/2013 08:12

The reason people think boys look ridiculous in dresses is because they think that girls and women are inferior, and that's pretty much the long and short of it.
Otherwise, I wouldn't be sitting here in trousers.

Original poster
ICBINEG · 26/03/2013 08:12

I have worn a dress about as many times as my DH has....a handful....

OP posts:
minouminou · 26/03/2013 08:14

And let's not forget, it was once illegal for women to wear trousers, we had to fight for this aspirational attire.

Original poster
ICBINEG · 26/03/2013 08:15

min yes indeed. Boys aren't supposed to look 'pretty'.

I actually made the mistake in the early days of saying how pretty someones male baby looked.....in my defence he really did look pretty...and why that is something to be ashamed of in boys and praised in girls I can't imagine.

OP posts:
minouminou · 26/03/2013 08:19

Girl, you would shit bricks if you met my DS. He's quite gender-fluid, and chops and changes his identity as he pleases, as well as his clothes.
He's very popular with girls and boys, and is an incredibly secure, confident, happy boy who is regularly spotted up trees while sporting a Chinese silk dress.
Why? Cos he bloody wants to, and we haven't told him he can't.