To feel sad that this could be the beginning of the end for the United Kingdom?

[SamuelWestsMistress]

I feel so sad this evening after hearing the news for the date for the referendum. I am really dreading the whole countdown to voting day because I really fear that the SNP will get their way. What would be really sad is if its a close count. I just desperately hope living here won't feel too different.

I love having a British identity despite being born in Scotland and will be so sad and angry if its taken away.

AIBU to be feeling rather worried and actually afraid by the entire thing? I really don't like the SNP. (Don't like the coalition it her, but I think they've managed to push things to come to this!)

Custardo, that's like asking all the other EU countries to also vote on the Uk's continued membership rather than just UK citizens.

It will though of course affect the rest of the uk in a big way. What do you mean by perimeters of the pot, are you asking what we currently contribute to or what would be separated?

custardo I looked at some figures earlier. On a percentage basis, if you include the 'geographical'share of North Sea oil in the revenue contribution from Scotland then the percentage contribution to the UK budget from Scotland is fractionally higher than the percentage of the UK expenditure we receive. that's based on figures that include shares in things like defence that are not devolved. but it's a small percentage difference-around .5% iirc.

However. ..on a monetary amounts basis we get more out than we put in. This is because overall expenditure is higher than revenue. I'm on my phone just now so can't link.

I may have left the country but I didn't emigrate. I moved a few hundred miles, that's all. We would never have considered emigrating and it is our intention to move back when we can.

This is not a safe legal arrangement and I think it could be challenged in the High Court.

I don't think for a minute that anybody not born in Scotland should have the vote, nor do I think that any Scot who has emigrated should have the vote. I think that all of us Scots living in this nation that is currently the UK should have the vote as we are all affected by it.

I don't think that any foreign nationals who live in Scotland should have the vote either, tbh, and have been discussing this with my French colleagues recently. They do not get to vote in general elections here, so why should foreign nationals in Scotland get to vote in the independence election.

From wiki:-

'Under the terms of the 2010 Draft Bill, the following people would be entitled to vote in the referendum:[15]
British citizens resident in Scotland;
Commonwealth citizens resident in Scotland;
citizens of other European Union countries resident in Scotland;
members of the House of Lords resident in Scotland;
Service/Crown personnel serving in the UK or overseas in the armed forces or with Her Majesty's Government who are registered to vote in Scotland'

Just about the only folk who can't vote are Scots living outwith Scotland in the rest if the UK.

Not on, in my view.

If I moved to England I would have considered that emigrating. It is another country after all.

My earlier post still stands about those who choose to live here having the vote. If I recall correctly, the same list of eligibility applies to Scottish Parliament elections, so it has hardly come out of the blue.

The key word is resident.

It is based on residency not nationality.No one has Scottish 'nationality' in the legal sense at least. Being born in Scotland doesn't cut the mustard. My fiancee's granddad was born in Edinburgh whilst his father was stationed there in the Army, but left a few weeks after his birth, should he get a vote? (He's dead now, but you get the point.

By the same token should my fiancee be able to vote in the London Mayoral election because she was born in London, but now lives in Scotland?

If you want to have a say about the future, move back, become a resident and then you are more than welcome to vote.

And Scots living in Canada, France or Japan can't vote either.

The 2011-2012 Government Expenditure and Revenue figures show that Scotland has 8.4% of the UK population and we receive 9.3% of UK public spending to run our services. However, what many people don?t know is that is that we generate 9.9% of UK taxes (up from 9.6% the previous year).

When we include all sides of the balance sheet - spending, tax revenues and borrowing - what this means is that, in the most recent year that full figures are available (2011-12), Scotland contributed £4.4 billion more in comparison to the rest of the UK.

Emigrating is moving to Canada, Japan or Australia. Papers are required, permission is required. There is no emigrating in moving around the UK at the moment.

How come do the French, German or other EU nationals get to vote when they are living there even if only for a short time? That is outrageous. It is of no consequence to them.

Anyway the reason is clear, if he does not allow the non Scotland residents Scots living in England, Northern Ireland or Wales to vote, he thinks he will win.

Mind you with a bunch of Scottish Nationalists running the show, I'd say good luck.

Lets add a few facts.

voting - people on the electoral roll will get the vote. If you see yourself as ever-so Scottish but live in Chicago and are not registered to vote in Scotland, it doesn't matter how much you bemoan the lack of Haggis and availability of Buckie, ya cannae vote.

Money. Taxes / spending. Including North sea oil revenues, last year according to the GER report. Tax take in Scotland was 53.1Bn GBP. Public expenditure was 63.8Bn GBP. You can play around with percentages all you like but running a structural deficit in excess of 20% of total tax take is ultimately unsustainable when you have no access to Bond markets. (How can you without an S&P Rating) and with finances like that it aint gonna be much better than Portugal. Also the £470Bn Cash and liquidity injection to support BOS and RBS is owed to the UK Govt. So either the bank stays controlled by Westminster or the new govt buys it. See above point about access to that kinda Dough. Either way that is gonna soon add up to real money.

Lets finally deal with ruled by evil tories fib shall we? Who sets Health and education spending? Wee Eck. Who sets welfare spending? Wee Eck. With the Devo Max current settlement there are huge disparities over power between London and Edinburgh. Oh and the EU. ignore what the nats say - Scotland will have to apply to join the EU under the terms of an acceding state. The requirement of that is to join the Euro. Unless Scotland wants to stay in Monetary union with London and keep the pound. But then you wont have control over fiscal and macro economic policy (more than if your currency was controlled by the ECB but not much) and in a year or two it will be a clamour for real independence as the evil tories are controlling Scotlands money.

Now you may read this and think I am anti independence, far from it. I am 100% in favour of Scottish independence. England will be marginally better off, we will have a new neighbour who will stop blaming us for everything and without a huge rump of labour MPs there is a good chance that we will never see the mendacious labour party ever grace the doors of Westminster again. So England wins, Scotland gets what it wants. Win. Win.

(of course Scotland will have a tough time of it, when the rich have been soaked to pay for everything and there is no money left. But hey, you're grown ups, you can add, you can do the math. Good luck, best wishes, sincerely I hope you make a go of it. BTW Can you make sure that you need a visa to visit England? cos that way we can keep Gordon Brown out forever. Ta muchly)

itsallgoingtobefine leave percentages out and look at the actual numbers from the ONS and our figures dont take into account the debt servicing which is centrally funded and the money to support HBOS and RBS. Where did your 4.4Bn come from? See here www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16477990 or here www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9131062/John-Swinney-accused-of-misleading-public-over-Scottish-tax-and-spend.html

Take yer pick

That was kind of my point voiceofnoreason - I was trying to highlight how both sides are getting away with saying the numbers support their arguments. But yes, the reality is a new and untested Scotland would not have a strong credit rating and would probably have difficulty borrowing at the level which would be needed to maintain the level of spending we have. Because in the UK as a whole we spend more than our revenue.

And that's before you factor in the expenses of creating all the new departments/functions we would need (e.g. a Scottish DWP) - we are talking pretty huge sums to get that running

When a bank fails that operates in more than one country the liability is split. so Scotland would need to repay about 10% of the bailout costs.

Yes Scotland's outgoings are greater than the UK. But most countries run at a deficit. And the Scottish deficit is less than the UK at a whole.

That should read outgoings greater than income

Who sets welfare spending? Wee Eck

?

voiceofnoreason, I think the Scottish Health service and education budget speaks for itself.
IME it's far better than the English model, 'Wee Eck' has so far had his priorities right.
I'm more worried about the things we can't control like the overhaul of the benefits system and the treatment of the unemployed, the disabled, and the working poor.
I'd like to see the policies on our most vulnerable members of society.

Welfare spending is not devolved.

they dont have to run at a deficit. Particularly when economies are growing.

No they don't have to but comparable countries do. And if Scottish gets independence and can fully set its own budgets we could be in a much better place.

One obvious saving would be not having to pay towards trident.

voiceofnoreason, suggesting that welfare spending is devolved isn't exactly adding facts to the debate.

If folk intend to add facts rather than opinion then it is sensible to reference them.

You see, this is one of the reasons I'm still a don't know.
I want to know what we'll do about welfare (could it be any worse?), about basic taxation etc. etc.
We're voting on independance, but I need to know what the plans are after.

Anyway the reason is clear, if he does not allow the non Scotland residents Scots living in England, Northern Ireland or Wales to vote, he thinks he will win

Nonsense. The electoral roll is the only logical basis on which a referendum could be held, for the reason I've stated up thread.

Emigrating is moving to Canada, Japan or Australia. Papers are required, permission is required. There is no emigrating in moving around the UK at the moment.

you could up sticks and move to any EU nation tomorrow and nor require any paperwork or permission.

How come do the French, German or other EU nationals get to vote when they are living there even if only for a short time? That is outrageous. It is of no consequence to them

Because they will be living working, paying taxes and supporting the Scottish economy and deserve a say. The referendum result will impact on their day to day life far more than someone born on the bonnie bonnie banks of Long Lomond but pissed off to Surrey 20 years ago.

If you are Scots but don't live here, you don't get a vote. You don't contribute to the economy or use the services,so tough luck. Move back to this paradise that you left and register on the electoral roll if you wish to vote.My rather large extended family are Anglo Irish and live here. We will all be voting no.

facts...
www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/higher/modern/uk_gov_politics/gov_sco/revision/1/

welfare includes social work and housing?

and yes the numbers above dont include defence spending. so yes if I was running scotland I wouldn't renew trident or buy any planes or keep the soldiers. I would close the dockyards like faslane and make the military redundant.

I am not commenting on priorities or the vulnberable. Just the numbers. I really think it should be up to the Scottish people to sort their own priorities out. And pay for them of course.

I am sure it will all be ok, truly I do. Sustainable, perhaps not, as the great scottish historian Tytler said A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses...

Scotland will be a smaller country and it will be interesting to watch.

Of course they can always buy a magic money tree from Robert M's money tree emporium of Harare. Gordon tried it. He was running a deficit of 156Bn a year before he left.

Tchoh the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples money. See here. Salmond rallies the Yes campaign

Does anyone know if registered overseas voters will be able to vote in the referendum?

If you are registered as an overseas voter then your constituency is the one you last lived in before leaving the UK. So if that was in Scotland, then you remain on the electoral roll in Scotland. So theoretically you should be able to vote.

But a lot of posts on here state that overseas voters won't be able to vote in the referendum... So I'm a bit confused about the rules! Anybody have any idea?