To feel sad that this could be the beginning of the end for the United Kingdom?

[SamuelWestsMistress]

I feel so sad this evening after hearing the news for the date for the referendum. I am really dreading the whole countdown to voting day because I really fear that the SNP will get their way. What would be really sad is if its a close count. I just desperately hope living here won't feel too different.

I love having a British identity despite being born in Scotland and will be so sad and angry if its taken away.

AIBU to be feeling rather worried and actually afraid by the entire thing? I really don't like the SNP. (Don't like the coalition it her, but I think they've managed to push things to come to this!)

A majority of Scot surveyed would like to see welfare devolved: www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-independence-case-for-wider-devolution-1-2843824

Apologies, I was going with 'Social Security (the Department for Work and Pensions)' as being the sensible definition of welfare. I suppose if social work and housing are classed as welfare then education and healthcare could be too.

Although BBC bitesize says 'housing' is devolved it also says 'Social Security' is reserved, which does include the 'bedroom tax' which will be levied on Scots too. Changes to disability benefits, and tax credits brought in by the Westminster gov't are all applicable in Scotland.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-18078260 The Scottish Parliament cannot stop Westminster changing the welfare benefits system.

Another Englisher here who thinks It is right I get to vote, I live here in the Highlands - and chose to do so - with my Scots wife and Scots children (born here too). I use the services, I contribute to the economy and the community and use the services provided.
I consider that this is what I am voting about, how the country is run - by selected devolved powers decided in Westminster - or from Edinburgh directly with locally elected representation making the decisions across the piece.

I fully expect a vote, will get to vote, and consider it right that I, and clearly it is right that Scots who have chosen to leave and seek employment out of the Country don't get to. Scotlands economy will rise or fall on our decision, we who live here will be the ones affected. If I (and my family) move away to England - I won't expect to be able to vote on it - not that we plan to leave.

But no - I don't know which way I will vote - I will decide over the coming 15 months.......and I will do my best to ignore the rants of the extremes and go with what i think will do best for my families' future -

Tartan shortbread - bravehart pipers -nessie kilts and Bannockburn haggis will have no influence over my decision!

Do you think we could get odds at William Hill on Rob Roy or Braveheart being broadcast at some point in the week before?! ;)

In all seriousness I agree with you Mikey9 - the people who choose to make their lives here should be the ones voting.

Compos Hat - from the Electoral Commission regarding general elections in the UK

'Who is eligible to vote at a UK general election?
To vote in a UK general election a person must be registered to vote and also:

be 18 years of age or over on polling day
be a British citizen, a qualifying Commonwealth citizen or a citizen of the Republic of Ireland
not be subject to any legal incapacity to vote

Additionally, the following cannot vote in a UK general election:

members of the House of Lords (although they can vote at elections to local authorities, devolved legislatures and the European Parliament)
EU citizens resident in the UK (although they can vote at elections to local authorities, devolved legislatures and the European Parliament)
anyone other than British, Irish and qualifying Commonwealth citizens
convicted persons detained in pursuance of their sentences (though remand prisoners, unconvicted prisoners and civil prisoners can vote if they are on the electoral register)
anyone found guilty within the previous five years of corrupt or illegal practices in connection with an election'

So the importance of the referendum on independence has been pitched at the same level as a local council election.

To be honest, I don't mind that anyone who lives in Scotland can vote, fair enough, my problem is that I have committed the worse crime of all, moved South - yet I have not severed links with my country at all, and at the moment could return at any time, but if independence is voted for, who knows ? I'll probably need a visa to get back in.

luckytwo, come on. You can't vote in Scottish Parliament elections. Even in UK elections you vote your local candidate as you are well aware, and votes are counted under first past the post. You have not voted in anything directly Scottish since you left as your vote is in an English constituency. It's not about moving south (or east, north or west), it's about moving out of the territory defined in this election, again I ask where would the line be drawn? Should I get a vote in Irish elections because I am part Irish but have never lived there, even though I have strong family ties? Of course not. I don't live there. As for the visa stuff, give me a break. No need for alarm.

If you really feel this strongly about it and 'could come back at any time', then I suggest you do that. The idea that expats might get to vote and those of us who plan to live and work here every day are expected to abide by a decision that they might have a deciding vote in - whilst potentially never returning to or contributing further to Scotland - is nonsense.

No - I think you have to live there for two years.

Anyway as I said before I am not en expat. An expat is somebody who lives in a different country. If England was a different country then Scotland would not need a referendum vote.

It is an extremely important vote, and people should feel strongly about it. I am surprised at the level of animosity against those of us who chose to move down the road - and I can't see why anyone would think we didn't have an interest. That is nonsense.But as I said before, if you choose independence, you'll either get Salmond or a libdem in charge. The reason you're in this mess is because the Scottish people for one reason or another decided labour was not a viable alternative , and chose SNP. That wont change after a succesful vote, and Salmond will have a mandate to do what he likes, with the interference of Brussels and Germany. What if you need a bail out - somebody will come raiding your personal savings.

And if you establish residency here again you can vote in this!

I do genuinely understand why you feel like you should get a vote, luckytwo, but like it or not you've chosen to live outside of Scotland at the time of this vote. I see your point of view about there being no need for a refendum vote as they are one, but even the most ardent unionist I'm sure would concede that we are discussing a political union between two countries, not just one country.

The logical extension of your argument would see all expats given the right to vote. I've no animosity towards anyone here, and again I don't like the fact that it's being made to sound like an anti-English point of view when the same could apply to any country or indeed part of the UK. Scots living in England are simply being treated in the same way as other Scots living outside of Scotland, and I honestly can't see how that can alter in a fair vote.

For me, the question should be - are you on the electoral roll in Scotland, and are you an adult in the eyes of Scots law? At the moment these are the terms and so I will happily abide by any result. I think this is a very prudent move on the part of both Scottish and UK governments as it would be much easier to rubbish a no vote based on votes from outside of Scotland, I feel that whatever the outcome here the terms are clear and fair.

Even although you sound like you will not be voting on the same line as me, if you feel so passionately about it, I really would consider moving back,or at least trying to convert a Yes voter?

No - expats are completely different, they have moved outwith the UK. There is no expat community down here.

It is completely different. We moved some years ago because my husband's company closed the plant he was working in and was lucky to be offered a new job in England. They might have asked him to move to the US - and have done since- but we would have - and did- decline because that is a whole different issue. We were not prepared to be so far from our families. A few hours in the car is all it is, probably the same distance as Dumfries to Aberdeen.

I can't just up sticks and come home to vote - I have four children and a job here.

Also I'm not sure how I would vote if I was allowed to - I haven't seen any proper arguments for or against. The only stuff I have read is about anti English on the ones side and anti - Scots from the other.

If I thought an independent country would see the end of the Scottish Nationalist party, I would vote for it

I think though opening the vote to Scots in the rest of the UK (only those born in Scotland? would there have to be a minimum previous amount of residency, etc etc) would be tricky legal ground and would likely open the vote to expats, which I do think would be seriously unfair.

I do see why you feel like it should be your vote too. I think in your position I'd be doing my best to convert someone who could vote to my point of view once decided. Not ideal but doing my bit, iyswim. It's unfortunate, but I still feel the rules are as fair as they can be, the last thing I'd want is a contested result to be honest.

I think the SNP will disband shortly after a yes vote, as the party is such a broad church that the one collective idea it shares would be gone. I'm not an SNP activist but I will be voting yes - simply believe in the right of people to run their own affairs and I believe the political divisions in the UK do not allow dor this or attempt to understand it. The arguments have usually gone down to horrible levels I agree, on both sides. This thread has been quite tame so far... (awaiting the inevitable...!)

Oh I will have to do as you suggest. Sadly my parents are both dead, but I know my brother has voted SNP in the past. My MIL reckons 'they all just do the same, there's no point in me voting!' so I don't think she even gets how important this vote is.

Do you think though, that Alec will just roll over and give up ? I don't think so. I don't mind Nicola Sturgeon though, but I think whenever there's a tricky situation he leaves her to do the talking .

But I do worry that a yes vote will mean becoming independent within Europe, signing up to the Euro, and the possibility of peoples' savings being raided as part of a bailout in the future. It will certainly mean more exposure for Scotland in terms of future economic disasters for Europe, also revenue from Oil will not go straight to the Scottish purses. I can't really see any positives, would love to hear them.

The positives:
Being able to choose an immigration policy tailored to Scotland rather than the UK as a whole.
Not having Trident.
Being able to agree our own welfare system.
Not being ruled by a government we didn't vote for - Scotland is generally more left wing.
Being able to have appropriate taxation to encourage growth.
Being able to borrow and spend capital finances as we wish.
Not having an extra tier in the court system (current appeals go to England first then Europe. As far as I know no other country has this extra tier).
Having more ability to choose which wars we send our troops to fight and die in.
Being in Europe. If the Tories have a referendum on the EU while we are still part of the UK, Scotland might have to leave despite our people voting to stay in.

I like Sturgeon too, especially when they're in tricky spots she seems to have real integrity. I think Eck will see out the time until the first elections of the new parliament (so he will have his time as the first Prime Minister), and then step aside. I think if you decide no, a conversion is probably your best bet of getting involved, and to be fair it will count as double (one less yes and one more no!)

My own positives (although I agree with those from Jollygreengiant) are much simpler - we can deal in the best way for the Scottish people with any decisions we need to make, and there's no blaming anyone else or hiding behind anyone else. The overwhelming majority of other countries in the world already do this and almost none do it without genuine fear of violence, I don't understand why the respective countries of the UK can't be politically independent to ensure the best for their own peoples, and be firm allies, neighbours and friends, sharing certain things when needed (see Scandinavia and their joyful sharing of quality television! Tongue in cheek but a good example of a lot of the issues).

Jollyyellowgiant! I apologise!

www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/comment/columnists/a-vote-for-independence-is-not-a-vote-for-salmond.20593742

Really interesting and relevant piece in the Herald.

I bloody love Ian Bell, even when I disagree with him (which is rare) his column is one of the very few properly thought out pieces of writing in the papers at the moment.

poster StatisticallyChallenged Fri 22-Mar-13 18:50:16
custardo I looked at some figures earlier. On a percentage basis, if you include the 'geographical'share of North Sea oil in the revenue contribution from Scotland then the percentage contribution to the UK budget from Scotland is fractionally higher than the percentage of the UK expenditure we receive. that's based on figures that include shares in things like defence that are not devolved. but it's a small percentage difference-around .5% iirc.

However. ..on a monetary amounts basis we get more out than we put in. This is because overall expenditure is higher than revenue. I'm on my phone just now so can't link.
--

great post, thank you so much for giving me the information.

I wondered what made you think Scotland should get a % of the oil revenue?

voiceofnoreason Fri 22-Mar-13 19:22:58

love your post.

dont agree with it - but really love it

Custardo - Wasn't saying I agreed or disagreed re oil revenue. The figures which are produced show different versions of revenue. I used the figures including geographical share as it's the highest figure and if you are discussing what Scotland "contributes" to the pot then surely you must say some of the oil is Scottish (on the basis of location). I suppose the better question is why wouldn't you - otherwise when you are establishing what percentage Scotland contributes you would effectively be saying all the oil is English/Welsh/Northern Irish?

We did a straw poll at work the other day 10 members of staff at work, not a single yes vote amongst them.

"It's about the right of a country to self-determination. Why on earth do people think that politicians in the SE of England know what's best for us, better than we do? "

It is a referendum the entire electorate get to vote to decide on Scotland's future, I do think the no vote will win but we have every right to have the vote, and if we do vote no, for whatever reason, we have every right to complain about the Westminster government, because they will still be our government just a hugely un-representative government of the Scots.

I look at countries like Norway to see why I would prefer to have independence, Scottish politics generally lean towards the left, but we don't get that just now with the Condems in power. I want independence for future generations not for the SNP, self-determination, a good relationship with the rest of Europe including our nearest neighbours! If we don't get it I will happily accept the majority vote, but I still have the right to express my opinion.

I also think any long term, voting age, resident of Scotland should have the right to vote, that is fair, no matter where they were born, they have a right to determine what the country they live in should do. Whoever mentioned needing a passport to cross the border??? Have you been to thr Republic of Ireland lately? No border controls there!

We're not to far from Holland, I might decide to move their at some point soon, my uncle lives there, I've been a few times. I demand a say in their elections!

If you move to Holland and go on their electoral roll as an EU citizen I'm pretty sure you could have a say in their elections

The only good thing to come from the referendum will be the end of Salmond and Sturgeon (to all intents and purposes) for the rest of the UK.

If they 'win' they'll be merrily off on their way, running Scotland into the ground.

If they lose, they'll disappear from the political headlines pretty quickly.

Win, win.

Agree 100% tapselteerieO.

How are you voting shelly (for some reason I have assumed you might not get a vote, which I realise is an unfair assumption)?

No vote for me, forgetmenots.