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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to be really annoyed about antibiotics?

399 replies

WaterfallsOver · 12/03/2013 10:30

Or rather their misuse. I have parent friends who run to the GP every time little Billy has a cough, demanding antibiotics, so many people see them as a panacea. I'm not medically trained but I know they don't work on viruses and many illnesses need to run their course with no medical intervention.

The news is telling us antibiotics won't work in a few years due to over/misuse. I feel really angry that selfishness and stupidity mean in a few years people may die from infections resistant to antibiotics :( if they were only used for serious illness perhaps we'd have a chance. There was a guy who died from resistant infection on the news :(

OP posts:
saintlyjimjams · 13/03/2013 12:10

Gracelo the tagline for Ben Goldacre's Big Pharma book is: how drug companies mislead doctors and harm patients.

He seems to think they act in rather misleading ways (I am no fan of Ben Goldacre, can't abide the man, but I do think he's correct in his concerns regarding the way trials are run and the evidence from those suppressed). All Trials website for anyone interested

ppeatfruit · 13/03/2013 12:11

It depends on the person\dc Abr1d of course if dairy doesn't make you ill its not a problem. I DO find it odd though that when your DCs are continually ill with it you don't look at a different way of eating.

pofacedplot · 13/03/2013 12:12

I think the jury is out with large doses of vitamin c. I mean there are studies showing that it can cause dna damage, studies showing that it can prevent dna damage. Anecdotal evidence that large intravenous vit C can sometimes help with certain cancers, but no clinical trials. More research needed, as usual. The research doesn't get funded though, obviously.

which research does get funded is a VERY thorny issue, especially with cancer. Clifton Leaf, cancer survivor, writes very well about it here

seeker · 13/03/2013 12:12

Eating dairy products does not give you bacterial infections.

pofacedplot · 13/03/2013 12:14

batintheroof I do agree with much of what you are saying but please don't jump on the sterile theory for asthma increase - it is just a theory and doesn't hold up for many I know - I for example grew up in damp dusty house full of animals and developed severe asthma at 10.

seeker · 13/03/2013 12:15

"To test whether Pauling might be correct, the Mayo Clinic conducted three double-blind studies involving a total of 367 patients with advanced cancer. The studies, reported in 1979, 1983, and 1985, found that patients given 10,000 mg of vitamin C daily did no better than those given a placebo"

pofacedplot · 13/03/2013 12:15

i mean bandwagon. Grin

pofacedplot · 13/03/2013 12:17

That was not intravenous seeker.

bigkidsdidit · 13/03/2013 12:17

one of the theories behind the vast increase in asthma is the use of folic acid past 12 weeks of pregnancy!

anyway must go back to the lab...

ppeatfruit · 13/03/2013 12:21

yes saintly and Ben Goldacre criticises Big Pharma more seriously than he criticises homeopathy.

seeker I have never said that Alternative Companies don't make money (why shouldn't they?) or that there is a possibility that there are some dishonest ones.

It seems odd though that with such 'thorough' testing done by Big Pharma there are ANY mistakes made with their drugs.

seeker · 13/03/2013 12:27

"I think the jury is out with large doses of vitamin c. I mean there are studies showing that it can cause dna damage, studies showing that it can prevent dna damage. Anecdotal evidence that large intravenous vit C can sometimes help with certain cancers, but no clinical trials. More research needed, as usual. The research doesn't get funded though, obviously. "

In vitro trials have shown that even if there is a very slight impact on cancer cells by mega doses fo vitamin C , the effect is completely negated by the fact that the vitamin C inhibits the effectiveness of chemotherapy. So clinical trials would be unethical.

batsintheroof · 13/03/2013 12:29

pofacedplot I know that's why I said 'may' and I also should have included 'contributes to' ;) I also have asthma and grew up in the countryside with dogs and cats running around everywhere. Environmental influences and interactions are complex and anecdotal evidence doesn't really mean much, you need massive datasets where you can control or account for all other factors. I do agree with you though.

Badvoc · 13/03/2013 12:30

Interesting.
I have flu - since last weds - and yesterday felt so unwell I went to the gp.
He have me ABs as he felt I now have a secondary infection.
Ds2 has also just been given ABs for a cold he has had for 2 weeks that has become a chest infection.
I have in problem taking ABs in either case.
We are both feeling pretty awful and hope that the ABs sort the bacteria out.
I don't take any vits but am going to start...this virus/bug has knocked me off my feet. Not sure vit c would do any good but am going to start taking a good multi vit.

ElenorRigby · 13/03/2013 12:37

Hmmm this thread is about bacterial infections not cancer.
An anecdote from someone who developed osteomylitis after a cat bite-

". His hand had swollen to twice its normal size and resembled a rubber glove that someone had blown up. The fingers protruded like useless appendages from a mound of purpled flesh. The skin was stretched so tightly that you could see the outline of your reflection in the back of his hand.

Upon arriving home we drove directly to the emergency hospital. A very efficient staff hovered around Frank?s hand, called in two more doctors, and within two hours of our arrival Frank was wheeled into the emergency operating room for the first of three emergency operations.

The verdict was unanimous-osteomyelitis, infection of the bone - - very serious. The bacteria had eaten away the bone, the joint, and the knuckle, and continued to travel down the hand. The laboratories were unable to identify the bacteria. Grim-faced doctors told me it would most probably cost Frank his hand - - and possibly his life. He was put on intravenous antibiotics around the clock. His hand was slashed open across the palm and down both sides of the finger to the bone and washed every two hours in an attempt to stop the raging infection.

I went before the hospital board to try to get vitamin C administered to him intravenously. I was told that they were sure it was a good treatment, but they knew nothing about it, and they did not allow treatments of which they had no knowledge.

I called in an internationally-known hand specialist, one who has written textbooks on the subject, to consult with the two hospital doctors.

The problem was a difficult one. Circulation to the hand (and, compounding that, to the bone) was very limited. Five weeks of antibiotics had not touched it. It was an ideal spot for the still unidentified bacteria to fester and spread - - which it was doing with alacrity.

The verdict was unanimous ? AMPUTATE

We began to consult with holistic doctors and leading nutritionists to find alternatives to this chilling diagnosis. We talked with Dr. Bob Cathcart. It was then that we garnered the courage to challenge the best of contemporary, orthodox medicine with a simple vitamin.

We became convinced that if we could just get Frank well enough to get him out of the hospital, we could save his hand.

When Frank refused amputation on the first of the month, the doctor warned Frank that he might pay for this delay with his life, as there was nothing to keep the infection from relocating elsewhere in the body.

A friend of ours, a doctor for whom we hold great respect and affection, told me I was naïve, that I didn?t know what I was doing and it would end up costing Frank his right hand - - if not his life.

After five weeks in the hospital on intravenous antibiotics and three operations, Frank insisted on being released. Upon his release, I drove him directly to the Holistic Medical Group in San Jose where Dr. Rettner administered 60 to 75 grams a day of vitamin C intravenously. I gave him 30 grams per day of oral C and liquid garlic.

We packed the hand in a garlic and red clay poultice at night. The pain, which had required two codeine tablets every four hours, stopped with the second treatment. Within nine days, before our believing eyes, the infection stopped, the swelling disappeared, and the deep open gashes left from the surgery healed, leaving only hairline scars.

Frank kept his appointment in surgery for the planned amputation. With a broad smile, he held out a no longer misshapen or discolored right hand to shake the hand of a very shaken surgeon.

They had ?never seen this happen before,? ?One in a million,? they said.

As I watched their shocked faces, a scripture verse came to mind: ?God has chosen the simple things of the world to confound the wise.? "

Note the IV dose that cleared the infection was 60 to 75gm's of C.

seeker · 13/03/2013 12:40

References?
Medical reports?
Witness statements?
Anything except anecdote?

ArielThePiraticalMermaid · 13/03/2013 12:42

It's all a little....ehm.... anecdotal, don't you think?

seeker · 13/03/2013 12:48

Interesting too that the only doctor mentioned- Dr Bob Cathcart- had his wiki page deleted.......

pofacedplot · 13/03/2013 12:49

yes anecdotal not really v persuasive.

seeker - that is a bigger problem with many clinical trials for cancer. the fact that the 'gold standard' treatment for cancer has to be applied first, ie, chemo and radiotherapy, and only the most resistant and difficult cancers get to go into clinical trials, which puts a huge barrier to those clinical trials getting objective results in terms of effectiveness.

This clinical trial would suggest that intravenous vit c does not always render chemo effective. here

''Cytotoxic chemotherapy is relatively ineffective for a large proportion of common cancers. Combining redox active molecules with certain chemotherapy regimens could increase their anti-cancer activity or protect host tissues from toxicity with no loss of anti-cancer activity. Research in this area has been advocated by cancer organizations, but previous clinical trials of combination chemotherapy and antioxidant therapy been small, poorly designed, and unsystematic. ''

Abra1d · 13/03/2013 12:50

One thing that does not just have anecdotal evidence to support it, but a wealth of research, is manuka honey.

This is my experience--I insisted on treating a very nasty infection in my son's toe with honey, rather than ABs. The podiatrist was anxious and told me I would have to go to the doc's for the ABs if the infection went past a certain point on the toe.

It didn't. The honey just seemed to eat up the infection.
A year later he got another toe infection (different toe). We did the same thing. Again the infection disappeared with just manuka honey. This time we had ABs to take if needed because my son was off on a school trip. He forgot to take them with him and just used honey. And had few dips in the sea.

pofacedplot · 13/03/2013 12:55

Not very large doses used though.

Immunotherapy for example, when T cells are engineered to recognise a specific or multiple cancer antigen, has proven amazingly successful in small trials for drug and radiotherapy resistant leukaemia. here

It is hoped that this therapy can be modified to attack other cancers. Interestingly Novartis has just come on board with a 20 million deal to partner with Prof June, about which he said: ?I never thought this would happen, that the pharma industry would get into ultra-personalized therapy,?

pofacedplot · 13/03/2013 12:56

honey proven to be good for bedsores here. but also sugar works, iirc.

pofacedplot · 13/03/2013 13:00

drug resistance a massive problem for cancer as well [though works on an individual rather than global level] which is why immunotherapy and other similair strategies so crucial

ppeatfruit · 13/03/2013 13:02

I have had very similar experiences with tea tree oil Abra1d I love manuka honey for sore throats as well. These are only anecdotes though so don't mean anything unless 10 million £ or so have been spent on research Grin

I also managed to save DS's fingernail (after it had been trapped in a car door) with homeopathic arnica. But it's a sugar pill placebo of course. Bloody good one though Grin.

pofacedplot · 13/03/2013 13:05

sugar works for ulcers Warning nasty photos!

ElenorRigby · 13/03/2013 13:07

Circulating levels of vitamin C (ascorbate) are low in patients with sepsis. Parenteral administration of ascorbate raises plasma and tissue concentrations of the vitamin and may decrease morbidity. In animal models of sepsis, intravenous ascorbate injection increases survival and protects several microvascular functions, namely, capillary blood flow, microvascular permeability barrier, and arteriolar responsiveness to vasoconstrictors and vasodilators. The effects of parenteral ascorbate on microvascular function are both rapid and persistent. Ascorbate quickly accumulates in microvascular endothelial cells, scavenges reactive oxygen species, and acts through tetrahydrobiopterin to stimulate nitric oxide production by endothelial nitric oxide synthase. A major reason for the long duration of the improvement in microvascular function is that cells retain high levels of ascorbate, which alter redox-sensitive signaling pathways to diminish septic induction of NADPH oxidase and inducible nitric oxide synthase. These observations are consistent with the hypothesis that microvascular function in sepsis may be improved by parenteral administration of ascorbate as an adjuvant therapy.

Mechanism of action of vitamin C in sepsis: Ascorbate modulates redox signaling in endothelium

Physicians caring for patients with sepsis may soon have a new safe and cost-effective treatment for this life-threatening illness. Research led by Dr. Karel Tyml and his colleagues at The University of Western Ontario and Lawson Health Research Institute have found that vitamin C can not only prevent the onset of sepsis, but can reverse the disease.

Vitamin C May Offer Potential Life-Saving Treatment for Sepsis