AIBU re friend smacking? (Sorry, long)

[loopyluna]

Back story -very good friend who has 7 yr old twins. I've known her for about 10 years and know how desperate she was to have them. She used to be a child-minder is someone that kids tend to adore. My DDs love her.

DTs are a real handful and always have been. Cheeky, bad-mannered and so willful. They have been through a lot as friend split from husband a year ago (not v amicably) and it's been hard on them all.

Anyway, friend has a temper. At the moment, she is having issues with her neighbours giving her stick about the children being too noisy, her divorce is imminent and she's v stressed.

However, yesterday we were walking home together after school and DTs were playing up as usual. They started bashing snow covered bushes on very narrow path, spraying us all with snow. Friend said "stop it" at least 4 times. One twin then ran on ahead but other twin then completely covered the dog in snow. I should have realised friend was at boiling point and bit my tongue, but I blurted out, "oh, that wasn't nice, poor dog..."

Friend then hit twin hard in the back with her school bag, enough to make her jerk forward but little madam turned round and said defiantly, "didn't hurt!" Cue friend completely losing it, slapping her DD on the face 3 times (my DD said twin managed to dodge and didn't get hit hard ) and yelling at her.

She then got down to her DD's level to talk to her and I walked on ahead with another mum who used to be her next-door neighbour. She said something like, "phew, when she loses it, best just keep out the way..."

Everyone eventually calmed down and friend caught up with us and her DD wasn't even crying. (Mine were horrified though.)

WIBU to try to have a word with her today, or should I do as neighbour said, and leave it?
I don't want her to feel I'm judging her but she is clearly struggling and can't go on like this or she's going to end up hurting one of them

what is this support and help you honestly believe ss offer wilson? all they do is assess is it necessary to put on at risk register and take further action or do we close case. that's it! that's what ss does.

at one stage the government wanted ss to be support for families who were not at risk but needed help and support to avoid becoming so and they paid out extra money for them to do that. however they didn't ringfence that money and the reality was ss were dealing with children being sexually abused, battered, not fed, surrounded by needles etc etc etc and they had to use the money for those kids rather than the stressed single mum who could do with some funded childcare and a parenting class once a week.

there is the imaginary world and there is reality sadly. reality is for support, help and aid we need our friends, family and informal networks because ss is too busy at the sharp end of the knife where children are at risk of being killed.

Well said swallowedafly. Completely agree.

Startail Either offer a bit of baby sitting or butt out. Some of us are not copy book parenting manual parents. I shout and have been known to smack persistently wilful small children.

This^^

Agree with swallowed as well (which was why I said earlier about having the twins if you can - if someone is losing their temper through stress then a break does help). She sounds a stressed mother at the end of her tether rather than the sort of mother swallowed describes.

A parenting course probably would help. Maybe you could say you are going on one, would she like to come along as well. I attended one years ago (not because I needed to - parenting courses don't really cover the situation we're in anyway) - but to support a friend who had started running them and to give her a bum on a seat - it was her first one. It was good and would probably be ideal for this woman, think it's the sort of thing that's helpful to anyone really struggling or not - not least because she would meet other mums. It can be a bit patronising to suggest though so if you have the time might be worth seeking one out to do together. Of course if you don't have the time ignore me, ultimately her temper & struggling isn't your responsibility, but if you want to help really the best help you can probably give her is to help organise support networks (rather than provide it all yourself which gets exhausting).

Not sure of the ages of the kids (you've probably said and I've probably missed) but maybe even looking out cheap activities for them to do might help. Holiday workshops etc?

Unfortunately I don't think SS are going to be interested or helpful in this case. A HV might be able to suggest something? They do child protection work now as well.

Ok, so had a coffee with friend and asked how it'd been yesterday after school and if she was feeling any better today. She said that the DT had been little horrors at bedtime too and admitted that she'd yelled at her DS and threatened to lock him out all night!

However, she has already made an appointment with a counsellor (she used to see one for something completely unrelated) and has asked the children's teacher for a referral to the school psychologist.

She is very fiery and hot tempered so I can't say I'm sure she'll never snap again but at least she's admitted she needs help and is trying to do something. She had a good moan about her stroppy neighbours and horrible in laws so I grabbed the opportunity to tell her not to give them any ammunition by rough handling the kids...

Thanks again for all the opinions.

sounds like you've handled it well and like she has had a bit of a wake up call and taken action. i think that's the best that can be expected at this stage. i bet your words about not giving ammunition will sink in.

sounds good that she is getting help for her and help for the children.

have to hope that the divorce getting sorted will make a difference too and maybe with that will come contact arrangements whereby the kids will spend time with their father and she'll get a break?

my advice would be to keep that conversation going - maybe call her after bedtime tonight and say how was it? did you handle it better? how are you feeling? etc and remind her to go pour herself a bath and make some time to chill out now they're in bed.

just remind her to mind herself and to keep watch of how she's doing with the kids gently. you've known her a long time so i think you'll know if things are going forwards or backwards.

Well done OP and glad to hear you had the courage to follow up so sensitively. Not easy. But your post provides more worrying information. You say she is fiery, you've seen her lash out in anger and she is freely admitting more goes on at home (no surprise)
Will you be able to keep on at her, ever so nicely of course? To see how she's getting on with appointments and referrals? Or, if that is too uncomfortable, would you be able to confide in someone sensible at the school so that possibly the children have access to support there?

what i mean by keeping the conversation going is that by keeping on with the how's it going? how are you coping? have you come up with better strategies for bedtime - have you tried x or y etc you'll keep her mindful that of watching herself and trying to improve things rather than just sinking into the 'mess' of it all and normalising it. it also makes a huge difference to have someone care about you and check in with you and be a 'witness' for you.

realistically she must feel very much the world is on her shoulders right now and you can't take the reality away or take on much more of the work but simply knowing someone is minding you, watching out for you and checking in to see how you're doing and letting you chat about it all really does make a difference.

She can still be fiery, she doesn't need to change that, and the children will probably always be wilful.

Her behaviour was a step over the line in my opinion, I have smacked, it's something I try and avoid, I am by no means perfect. But a smack around the face? No. Stress is no excuse.

Saying that, I would not report her, I would support her. She is at least making moves to get help, hopefully she will learn some strategies to cope. Maybe you could try things out together? Small things. What made a HUGE difference in my youngest's behaviour was calm. I didn't shout. I didn't expect him to do as told the first time, but there were consequences if he didn't (calm ones) (No TV, no 'afters' at tea time, no party at the weekend) and no discussion about it. It takes time though, so try to be there for your friend as much as possible, don't just pop round for tea (that creates a backlog of work making life harder sometimes) go round and help in any way you can, perhaps, if you're up for it, babysit the twins and speak to them (with your friends permission).

The teachers could also be a great help too. How are the children behaving at school?

The incident with the smacking does not need to be mentioned yet and I've always found my sons' school to be excellent at supporting homelife by way of behaviour strategy.

At school her DS is distracted, a little behind and a bit naughty at playtime. Her DD is very introverted but keeping up with work. When I have them, they are ok though destructive. They are very bad mannered which riles me (and friend never, ever tells them to say please, thank you, sorry or even hello!) No, the hideously bad behaviour is definitely reserved for their mum.

I see them every day at school pick up times and they usually pop round on a weekend. They have a lot of activities -swimming, riding, judo, tennis etc which are supposed to wear them out and make bedtime easier!

Will certainly keep the dialogue open. She's not one for bottling things up so I'm sure she'll tell me how it's going.

maybe bring up that now she's on her own with them she might want to really crack down on behaviour with some new strategies to make it easier for her. as in use this opportunity to maybe nudge her into working on their manners etc but sold as being for her sake now that she needs to manage them on her own and needs them to up their game and all work together to make home run smoother.

her ego can always fall back on thinking it was because of him they were badly behaved if needs be - it doesn't much matter how she frames it if she manages a fresh start and to turn things around.

i'm aware this isn't all your responsibility sorry if i'm making it sound like you should be her unpaid therapist but you know what i mean - a bit of subtle manoeuvering now could see her turning things around without even really having to feel shit about them having gotten as bad as they have itms.

I dont know if this has been mentioned but children will often imitate their parents behaviour. So if a parent smacks/assaults, the children will also think its ok to smack/assault their other children when stressed.

It is a difficult situation, because she is your friend, though. Maybe find a new friend? Might be better all round, as their kids influence might rub off onto yours.

yeah just abandon her OP. you wouldn't want your kids picking up on bad behaviour

Ok they sound painful. I couldn't put up with no manners, disruptive behaviour so all power to you for being a patient and supportive friend.

Too many activities, not enough down time, too much stress, it sounds crazy.

To swallowedafly
Well I won't condone physical child abuse, no matter how stressed the bloke is. OP in first post says she and her child were horrified, but friends child wasn't even crying. Poor thing, sounds like she is used to abuse. I'd also echo what someone said earlier, that the abused child shouting "didn't hurt" sounds like she was trying to save face. Instead she gets punched in the face and humiliated some more.

Sometimes it is better to get away from toxic influences be they abusive husbands or friends. Just because friend isn't abusive to OP is secondary.

I do like your advice though swallowed, but I don't think I agree with it. The OP has painted the friend to be a sympathetic character. But taking c

sure it's better for you to be away. but if everyone walked away from everyone who wasn't coping well with going through a divorce where the kids had been abandoned by father who won't even financially help support them leaving a stressed mother having to try and manage everything practically, emotionally, financially etc single handed where would be?

no she shouldn't have lashed out in temper. though jumping to 'punching in the face' is a bit much. i have personally been on the receiving end of a flipped out mother coming at me with slappy hands flailing (which is how i read the slapping incident - mother didn't hold her still and slap her three times but just flailed at her and caught her maybe 3 times). it's horrible and scary and humiliating YES but it isn't like being punched in the face in a calculating manner - it's like being on the receiving end of a super stressed outburst of ineffectual temper. it is definitely not good parenting and it is definitely not good for the mum either to be so at her wits end that she flips like that - it's not a nice place to be for her either. in reality though it is 100times better to be with a mum who is stressed and not being a great parent than it is to be in care.

do bear in mind this woman has been left with challenging twins, seen her husband walk away without even helping with the bills, her in laws seeming happy to never the kids again and her being left to deal with all of the fall out. no none of that is an excuse to behave terribly but it is certainly a lot of stress and extenuating circumstances that could mean we are seeing the worst of her parenting and coping skills and the worst of her emotional resilience coming to the fore.

she's not doing great! i DO find it really sad the amount of people whose response is dump her and call social services! this is the OP's friend - what does friendship mean to people?

i'm not saying this woman is being a good mother but there is a difference between not being a good mother in the hell of divorce, financial worries and adjusting to being left to raise two kids single handed and being an abusive monster who should be avoided like the plague.

Zippey -I see your point, really I do. Like I said, these kids are a pain and even DD gets sick of them at times.
But, I never said my friend had punched her in the face?! She slapped her, I think she did it 3 times because she kept missing? It was quick and a blur and it did bother me, but I'm trying to keep it in perspective. She lost it and shouldn't have but she knows that it was really bad.

I have 3 fairly good, mostly well behaved kids, a supportive DH, nice house, work freelance... It would be easy to judge and walk on, sure. Friend had all the materialistic advantages but an awful DH and difficult kids. She's now a single mum in a council flat whilst her DH has their 4 bed detatched to himself (pre-nup) and no contact with the kids -just round the corner! I honestly think things can only get better for her now and can't see how dumping her and calling SS will improve anything!

Zippey, I hope a friend of yours is never in need of support and a balanced view.

As a broader point, I do think there is a real element of contagion with these threads. Someone posts an account of something which the first few people read, then a bit of an extreme view comes along and as the posts increase, people stop reading the OP and just read the posts and suddenly it's 'report her!'; 'she shouldn't be helping out in a school!', 'child abuser!' Luckily, Loopy has stepped in a few times to clarify.

Swallowed, the next time I've got a problem I might just PM you! Great stuff.

Which country are you in OP? Didn't realise pre nups were enforced/legally binding in the UK?

Loopyluna and swallowed
I do understand what you guys are saying and of course its harder when you know the person and they are a good friend. Its a bit like the "would you tell on your son/daughter if they had committed a crime" debate. I dont think there are any winners here. I agree that it would be best all round for kids and parent if the friend was to get some kind of help. I hope the friend will be willing to accept any help offered and agree that there should be zero tolerance on violence and addressive behaviour.

Wileyroadrunner: i'm not in the UK but in Northern Europe. I know nothing about marital law in either country but as far as I know, my friend didn't put up much of a fight as she just wanted out of the marriage. Her divorce isn't final yet as her ex has done everything he can think of to delay proceedings though.

A friend of mine is going through a divorce as well and although it is all very amicable, there is an assumption on his part that they will split the cash from their house sale down the middle so they can each buy a new place. Her view is that she (as the person with their two young children living with her) needs a greater share of that cash as she can't, for example, plump for a flat; she needs a house, with at least 2 bedrooms. But he wants a decent share so he can buy a flat in the part of London he prefers (quite an expensive part). Acrimony is inevitable. It must be so stressful.

How do you know what goes on behind closed doors op ?? Many kind, loving family men are abusive bastards behind closed doors, it's a well known fact.

I think these children are behaving the way they are because something is happening that you don't know about, the girls reaction to being hit in the face speaks volumes sadly.

It's your duty to report this before the children become even more disturbed.

you clearly read the thread or you might have to actually qualify what you think 'reporting' will actually achieve. 'report it' - and then what????? never let reality get in the way of self righteousness.

I agree that reporting it only makes the reporter feel pleased with themselves that they have done the 'right thing.' It will achieve nothing.

And this thread is nothing to do with men. And the child wasn't 'hit' in the face.