Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU re friend smacking? (Sorry, long)

102 replies

loopyluna · 12/03/2013 08:39

Back story -very good friend who has 7 yr old twins. I've known her for about 10 years and know how desperate she was to have them. She used to be a child-minder is someone that kids tend to adore. My DDs love her.

DTs are a real handful and always have been. Cheeky, bad-mannered and so willful. They have been through a lot as friend split from husband a year ago (not v amicably) and it's been hard on them all.

Anyway, friend has a temper. At the moment, she is having issues with her neighbours giving her stick about the children being too noisy, her divorce is imminent and she's v stressed.

However, yesterday we were walking home together after school and DTs were playing up as usual. They started bashing snow covered bushes on very narrow path, spraying us all with snow. Friend said "stop it" at least 4 times. One twin then ran on ahead but other twin then completely covered the dog in snow. I should have realised friend was at boiling point and bit my tongue, but I blurted out, "oh, that wasn't nice, poor dog..."

Friend then hit twin hard in the back with her school bag, enough to make her jerk forward but little madam turned round and said defiantly, "didn't hurt!" Cue friend completely losing it, slapping her DD on the face 3 times (my DD said twin managed to dodge and didn't get hit hard Hmm) and yelling at her.

She then got down to her DD's level to talk to her and I walked on ahead with another mum who used to be her next-door neighbour. She said something like, "phew, when she loses it, best just keep out the way..."

Everyone eventually calmed down and friend caught up with us and her DD wasn't even crying. (Mine were horrified though.)

WIBU to try to have a word with her today, or should I do as neighbour said, and leave it?
I don't want her to feel I'm judging her but she is clearly struggling and can't go on like this or she's going to end up hurting one of them Hmm

OP posts:
Thingiebob · 12/03/2013 10:46

This is the problem with using smacking as discipline. It invariably escalates. If she loses it to the point where she is repeatedly smacking her dd in public, then how bad can it get?

She clearly needs help and support.

WilsonFrickett · 12/03/2013 10:55

I have to agree, if someone posted that the father had hit a child across the face three times there wouldn't be such supportive posts. I do realise the woman is in extremis, I do realise she probably was out of control but she slapped her daughter on the face?

And I have smacked my DS, I am not a person who doesn't think there's no place for physical chastisement when bringing up children. But this is something else.

littlehalo · 12/03/2013 10:56

FGS.

Why the exasperation? If this morning someone came up to you in the street, pushed you in the back and then smacked you in the face three times would you not at least consider reporting it as an assault?

SirBoobAlot · 12/03/2013 11:06

I don't agree with smacking full stop, but there is a HUGE difference between a smack on the bum and hitting a child in the back with a bag and them slapping them in the face three times.

OP as much as you might love your friend, this isn't something you can fix by supporting her yourself. It isn't a 'cake and tea will fix things' situation.

Call Social Services, tell them you are concerned about your friend's well being, and that she needs some extra support.

She needs extra support, and the children deserve to be treated better than that.

Original poster
loopyluna · 12/03/2013 11:07

Sockpixie -when you say "assaulted", what did your friend actually do? I'm not sure I would classify this as assault or not?

Actually, that's not true. I suppose I posted here as I was pretty shocked to witness this and do classify it in my mind as "assault". However I'm not sure if I'm over-reacting or not, hence the mn post. I do really appreciate the huge spectrum of responses I've been given.

I didn't see friend earlier as she was helping out at school today (had forgotten.) So I'm still unsure about the whole thing...

OP posts:
SirBoobAlot · 12/03/2013 11:09

The other mum's / old next door neighbor's comment, combined with the fact that she was willing to do this in public, also are highly concerning. You don't know what goes on when you're not there. And temper's are always worse in private.

WilsonFrickett · 12/03/2013 11:10

OK, to help you clarify your thoughts, if your friend had pushed you on the back and then slapped you on the face three times, would you think it was assault then?

I think you would.

IneedAsockamnesty · 12/03/2013 11:17

She slapped him round the face and kicked him

Oblomov · 12/03/2013 11:18

Smacking across the face. Is that legal? I thought you weren't allowed to hit the head? Or does it still come down to leaving a mark?

IneedAsockamnesty · 12/03/2013 11:19

If your unsure pass the matter on to someone who is qualified to be sure and deal with if needed.

IneedAsockamnesty · 12/03/2013 11:23

www.childrenslegalcentre.com/userfiles/Smacking.pdf

This explains it.

pleasestoptalking · 12/03/2013 11:29

Hi,

It sounds like your friend is having a really difficult time. All children go through difficult stages and I think having twins makes those tough times quite relentless. You sound like a good friend and probably the best thing you can do is offer an ear or a coffee or even a playdate for the children to give your friend a little headspace.

Maybe even a night out and a glass of wine might do the job?

Oblomov · 12/03/2013 11:29

Have read. As I thought. It is very subjective. One court my think it is 'reasonable punishment', another may NOT think it is 'reasonable chastisement'. It is not clear, not balck and white.

swallowedAfly · 12/03/2013 11:49

but she's going to give her friend the chance to take action herself first before jumping to reporting and taking it all out of her hands.

the tea and cake and head on chat is an opportunity for her friend to say no, i'm not coping, yes maybe i do need to go to the doctor and get some medication or ask to see a counsellor, yes i need to take action in ways x, y and z.

this happened yesterday. friend has had a chance to sleep on it and at least bloody deserves a conversation from a good friend of years giving her the chance to take action before running to ss/police etc.

no one is saying that her behaviour was acceptable but surely there is a step BEFORE reporting to authorities when it is your good friend. for all anyone on here knows the woman has already apologised to dd, had a wake up call and is making appointments to get help.

the idea that people would ring social services on their close friend after witnessing something before even having a conversation with that friend is bizarre actually. it's not some stranger you have no chance to follow up on but your friend and you love her and her children and want what is best for them. there are many things to try before having to call in the authorities. she's witnessed one 'lost it and had a slapping frenzy' head fit from her friend in all the years she has known her. of course there are things she wants to try before running off to call the police.

Original poster
loopyluna · 12/03/2013 11:53

On this occasion, friend hasn't physically "hurt" her DD. We walked the remainder of the way home and she had no marks on her face (I did sneak a look) and my eldest DD who was right next to her at the time of the slapping told me that she had more or less dodged the slaps.

It could be that friend is mortified about this and will never let herself lose control again. I really hope so.

On the other hand, like someone said earlier, she could have hurt her if she'd knocked her on to the ground when she whacked her with the school bag, or if she'd jerked her head back and hit the fence she was in front of when she got slapped.

The divorce is next week so hopefully that will settled some issues, including the maintenance etc. They have had some family therapy of some kind but not sure if the children were involved. I might ask her about it and suggest she speak to the mediation services about the DT's challenging behaviour.

OP posts:
Original poster
loopyluna · 12/03/2013 11:55

Thanks swallowedafly. Voice of reason!

OP posts:
lrichmondgabber · 12/03/2013 12:01

Smacking in this country is largely history. Talk and listen

dilys4trevor · 12/03/2013 12:02

swallowedafly. People like you are the reason it is worth asking advice on Mumsnet (once you've sifted through all the knee-jerk responses and-ask-no-questions-judgeypants). I mean that in a good way obv!

SirBoobAlot · 12/03/2013 12:06

OP why didn't you intervene whilst this was happening? I don't understand how you could just stand and watch, then casually walk home after as if it was a regular day.

lrichmondgabber · 12/03/2013 12:08

I intervened in Richmond shops in the old days on smacking which was frequent. Do it from a safe distance. Dads get upset

Oblomov · 12/03/2013 12:08

totally agree with SwallowedAfly.
Reporting her to SS for abuse/neglect would achieve nothing, but would be very damaging to both mother and children.

FrauMoose · 12/03/2013 12:10

For me the question is what 'friends' does the child have? Their contemporaries at school aren't exactly going to be able to help. They can't negotiate or express their feelings in an articulate way to a parent who represents their only perceived source of security.

If the parent had caught up with original poster and said, 'Help. I know, I'm losing it. What can I do?' the scenario would be a bit less disturbing. Similarly if she'd explained to the poster,that it had been a one-off loss of control and that she'd then hugged her daughter, and sorted matters out with her...

WileyRoadRunner · 12/03/2013 12:11

OP I do not think your friend should be helping in a school.

Slapping a child around the face 3 times is just not on. It is not normal.

Perhaps you should pass the matter on to the schools child protection officer, they will be able to deal with it if necessary.

swallowedAfly · 12/03/2013 12:20

reporting would close off the support that the woman does have. in exchange for a phonecall and someone coming to see her in several weeks time, checking their were beds in the house and food in the cupboards and that the child did not look physically harmed or neglected. they'd then write to GP and check their were no concerns and likewise the school and then close the case.

meanwhile she has lost her dear friend who has been supporting and is willing to continue to do so, she is further isolated, more paranoid and trusts no one (she's going through an acrimonious divorce, has lost her partner, the father of her child, her inlaws and all sources of support and aid financially, emotionally and practically) and is stressed out further by the futile, don't really care but will scare the shit out of you none the less, interview and paperwork of social services who even if she asks for help will offer her nothing because their funding barely extends to helping seriously at risk children let alone children whose mother is stressed out through a divorce and family problems and lashed out in a fit of temper (rather futiley) at her daughter one day.

whilst people are thinking 'i'd do the right thing and report to ss' what they'd actually be doing is washing their hands of doing any of the real support and emotionally messy business of really supporting this family and replacing it with absolutely fuck all except more stress and isolation for them. bravo for your theoretical right thing and moral high ground. the net result will be things getting worse for the woman and her children in reality.

WilsonFrickett · 12/03/2013 12:21

You know SS don't just swoop in and grab children from parents who are in stressful circumstances, don't you? They offer support and help - which this woman clearly needs.

She's under a lot of stress, I get that. It's not going to magically disappear though, is it?

And again, how many people would go 'ah, she's under a lot of stress, I'll nip round with a bottle of wine to chat' if their friend had slapped them round the face three times?