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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU re friend smacking? (Sorry, long)

102 replies

loopyluna · 12/03/2013 08:39

Back story -very good friend who has 7 yr old twins. I've known her for about 10 years and know how desperate she was to have them. She used to be a child-minder is someone that kids tend to adore. My DDs love her.

DTs are a real handful and always have been. Cheeky, bad-mannered and so willful. They have been through a lot as friend split from husband a year ago (not v amicably) and it's been hard on them all.

Anyway, friend has a temper. At the moment, she is having issues with her neighbours giving her stick about the children being too noisy, her divorce is imminent and she's v stressed.

However, yesterday we were walking home together after school and DTs were playing up as usual. They started bashing snow covered bushes on very narrow path, spraying us all with snow. Friend said "stop it" at least 4 times. One twin then ran on ahead but other twin then completely covered the dog in snow. I should have realised friend was at boiling point and bit my tongue, but I blurted out, "oh, that wasn't nice, poor dog..."

Friend then hit twin hard in the back with her school bag, enough to make her jerk forward but little madam turned round and said defiantly, "didn't hurt!" Cue friend completely losing it, slapping her DD on the face 3 times (my DD said twin managed to dodge and didn't get hit hard Hmm) and yelling at her.

She then got down to her DD's level to talk to her and I walked on ahead with another mum who used to be her next-door neighbour. She said something like, "phew, when she loses it, best just keep out the way..."

Everyone eventually calmed down and friend caught up with us and her DD wasn't even crying. (Mine were horrified though.)

WIBU to try to have a word with her today, or should I do as neighbour said, and leave it?
I don't want her to feel I'm judging her but she is clearly struggling and can't go on like this or she's going to end up hurting one of them Hmm

OP posts:
DumSpiroSpero · 12/03/2013 09:30

Agree with Smile - SureStart is a great place to get support, both for mum and for helping her to find parenting strategies that don't involve physical punishments.

They can also hook her up with a Homestart volunteer so she has ongoing support with what she's going through at the moment.

Can't begin to get my head round slapping a 7yo round the face three times, but it does sound as if the poor woman is at the end of her rope. Obviously if she won't accept help and it continues then you'll have to have a rethink.

FWIW - my Uncle used to do the 'doesn't hurt' routine with my grandad as a child - even when he got 'slippered' (back in the 1940's I hasten to add!)

Branleuse · 12/03/2013 09:33

honestly, if shed have smacked one on the bum, then i wouldnt bat an eyelid, but shes just assaulted her child, and judging by the childs response, this is common.

You cant just beat up your child in the street ffs. Id be tempted to call social services. I couldnt be friends with someone like that

IneedAsockamnesty · 12/03/2013 09:35

If anyone behaved like that to my children I would call the police.

There is no way that slapping a 7yo round the face repeatedly is reasonable chastisement.

WorraLiberty · 12/03/2013 09:36

I agree that if this was a man the replies would no doubt be totally different with cries of 'bully' and 'abuser'.

Yes the woman is stressed but the kids need protecting from her lashing out.

Someone up thread said 'they very much doubt she'll end up hurting them'.

I beg to differ. Bashing a child hard in the back with her school bag, could well have led to her falling down and smashing her face on a wall/pavement.

dilys4trevor · 12/03/2013 09:36

I agree choceyes

Obviously mentioning it to the school would be the end of your friendship, even if couched in the best language.

Only you can decide what to do based on what you know about her.

I feel desperately sorry for her. I wouldn't say different if it were a teenage mum from an estate - they have very tough lives. I might with a man though, you're right.

Goldenbear · 12/03/2013 09:36

She sounds like she is at the end of her tether but isn't smacking the child around the face illegal? As a friend I would try and talk to her about us because of this fact and where this may lead if she doesn't keep her anger in check.

I was in a park with my DS after school and a child got slapped around the face. A lot of parents saw this and one told her he was going to call the police. I'm not sure what happened as the woman left the park but a lot of people visit this park after school so the man probably did inform the school. I've never seen a parent smack a child at my DS's school, you barely see anyone raising their voice, definitely not shouting so the disbelief amongst the parents was probably greater than normal.

Branleuse · 12/03/2013 09:37

who slaps their children in the face ffs. Im absolutely horrified.
I know twins must be hard. I had 2 babies in a year and i imagine twins is much the same, plus 2 of mine having SN, and I have REALLY struggled to cope, but this is a child safety issue

FrauMoose · 12/03/2013 09:38

I think there's a conflict between what you want to do for her friend (support her, be understanding etc) and your responsibility towards her children. Even allowing for a range of different views about what's an appropriate way to show children that their behaviour is not acceptable, it sounds as if something is wrong.

I think I would report what you saw to the school, who will look into the issues around child protection.

IneedAsockamnesty · 12/03/2013 09:38

Dear god now you have to consider the loss of a friendship before you report someone for abusing a child in public.

That's a disgraceful attitude.

dilys4trevor · 12/03/2013 09:43

Thinking about the repeated slapping of the face, yes this is pretty bad. I'm thinking about the times when I have smacked and it is only ever once, or a bit of a token 'show' around 2 or three very light ones on a clothed bum.
I have lost it and really shouted at the kids in front of people though before and I have been mortified.
I bet your friend went home that night feeling very low indeed.

IneedAsockamnesty · 12/03/2013 09:45

Golden in England its only against the law if it leaves a mark.however I believe face slapping in general is frowned apon,

Not quite sure how you could slap a child round the face 3 times one after the other and not leave a mark

Oblomov · 12/03/2013 09:45

The 3 times in the face shocked me, although I have myself, a coupke of times, smacked in anger, so I have no grounds.
But have any of you noticed that the mum said to the children 4 times, don't do that, then one is running ahead. And then when smacked,the defiance of child, practically her saying, yeah, you can't hurt me, didn't hurt. ner-ner. Shock
I mean, goodness, that is real defiance.
And i recognise that, becasue ds1 has it. And he is very hard to manage.
And it seems to me that alot of children these days have this attitude: not doing what they are told, a lack of respect, most reward/punishments being totally meaningless, and non-effective AND the defiance, .... well, its shocking. I never spoke to my mum like that. And I see it alot, by lots of diferent children. Is a worrying trend.

Greensleeves · 12/03/2013 09:49

That's not even smacking! She hit her in the back with her school bag and then slapped her repeatedly across the face? I would have called the police.

Poor little girl Sad. No wonder those children are badly behaved. Their mother can't control herself and they are not safe. At least call Social Services.

Greensleeves · 12/03/2013 09:50

also I can quite see how a child who is smacked in such an uncontrolled and aggressive way would become hardened to it and meet it with more definance and "you can't hurt me" rather than tears. It's a very bad sign. Sad

ChipTheFish · 12/03/2013 09:51

She sounds very stressed, but she also sounds like she completely lost control.

I would have a word with her about it. I may well be that she is aware that she has had a short temper recently, and you discussing it with her could encourage her to address it.

Greensleeves · 12/03/2013 09:51

defiance, not definance

Original poster
loopyluna · 12/03/2013 09:53

Sockpixie -that's easy to say when you read about it on mn. In reality, I'm talking about someone I have known for a long time and believe to be a good mum.
Yesterday she wasn't a good mum and I am concerned. However, how would reporting her help the DC in reality?

They've been through a lot of upheaval and need their mum. She needs to be superhuman and not lose it with them, no matter how much they provoke her.

Their dad, is sadly, in no position to help. He pretty much left her to 100% of the parenting even when they were together. His parents have always helped out a lot but since he hasn't paid any maintenance, ever, friend has recently refused access. (Think she thought it would push them to start paying up but they happily accepted to not see the DC anymore!)

My eldest has finally emerged from his bed (snow day here) so I'm going to pop round to see friend now, just for non-confrontational chat for the mo...

OP posts:
chubbychipmonk · 12/03/2013 09:54

If she is ahold enough friend I would have a word with her, ask her how she's coping, discuss the slapping in the face (totally not acceptable IMO) and maybe offer to babysit/ ask how you can help.

If other neighbours have noticed her behaviour & she acts like that in public then it may only be a matter of time before someone who doesn't know the full circumstances reports her

Startail · 12/03/2013 09:57

Id missed hitting them on the face, must learn to read. That isn't acceptable.

I still suspect she may not, if she's in the middle of splitting up, be in a place where anything other than practical help and suggestions of activities to get her out the house will help.

She undoubtedly knows hitting DTs out of temper is wrong and feels guilty.

We all tend to be at our most defensive when we know we are wrong.

Original poster
loopyluna · 12/03/2013 09:58

Chipomonk -that's what I'm going to say to her. If she hadn't already thought it herself, I think the idea of being reported to SS might be enough to make her take a deep breath in future...

OP posts:
Greensleeves · 12/03/2013 09:58

How are you going to feel if she does go too far and really hurt one of them, and you didn't report this?

I know it's horrible but the children need to be protected. And she needs to know that she can't just lash out like this.

littlehalo · 12/03/2013 09:59

I feel desperately sorry for her. I wouldn't say different if it were a teenage mum from an estate - they have very tough lives. I might with a man though, you're right.

Assuming we're talking about parents at the end of their tether I believe we should extend understanding and support to all three - but only where this has been properly assessed by professionals and such support has been deemed adequate to keep the children safe.

Of course smacking is legal but hitting the head, repeated smacks in one incident, elements of humiliation, leaving marks, use of slippers or other implements etc are extremely worrying and really do need investigating. Not in the interests of 'punishment' as someone mentioned up thread, but in the interests of someone skilled and child focused speaking to the child and trying to understand their internal world and how the physical chastisement impacts upon them.

The child's defiant 'didnt hurt!' smacks to me of a child who was embarrassed and humiliated and desperately trying to save face infront of the other mothers and kids, what if she went home and cried into her pillow OP? You've obviously been a great friend to this woman but you are not the right person to assess what is right for this poor child, I think you should speak to the school about what you saw who will then make an informed decision about whether or not to pass on to social services.

littlehalo · 12/03/2013 10:04

She undoubtedly knows hitting DTs out of temper is wrong and feels guilty

How do we know this?

dilys4trevor · 12/03/2013 10:22

FGS.

littlehalo, presumably loopy (clearly a good mum and woman) wouldn't be friends with someone who thinks that hitting kids is great. Remember loopy has said she has known and been good friends with this woman for years and considers her a good mum.

'We' don't know anything - we are reading about it on MN. Some people are not even reading the account of what happened properly.

Poor woman, clearly having a shocking time of it. And her poor kids are too, one way or another. Hope she feels better today and that she finds a better way to deal with those twins. You could recommend a state therapist through the doctor? Someone to talk to.

What she did was wrong, no question, but reporting her is drastic when loopy has witnessed this once and the woman is at the end of her tether.

IneedAsockamnesty · 12/03/2013 10:36

Loopy.

My best friend in the whole world some years ago did assault her child in my presence, I helped her and him by removing him from the suituation and calling the police.

I also helped her and him by saying yes to the social worker who asked me to keep him for respite as her familiy were unwilling to help and then after we had gone through there process still keeping hold of him whilst she went into a mental health unit.

Every single time she has been unable to parent I have helped by having him and assisting her in getting professional support.

He is now 21 and a asset to our lives and she has been able to parent effectively without using violence since he was about 12.

Yes it is easier when your not involved but to turn a blind eye to a child being hurt because its complicated is not helping anyone especially not her.