to point out that formula feeding doesn't necessarily require you to be sterilising bottles and scooping out powder in the middle of the night...

[itsakindarabbit]

Keep seeing this on threads which mention ff...how people couldnt be doing with getting up in the night andstsrilising bottles/making up feeds.

I bf and ff but found ff no problem at night - i would take up a carton of ready made formula and a pre sterilised bottle and i could feed without getting out of bed.

And yes, i know ready made formula is expensive and not everyone uses it. But some of us do/did.

They're posting because apparently some other posters said bf and ff were the same. So, like the XKCD comic I posted a link to, SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET AND MUST BE CORRECTED.

I like the poster who came and said "hahahaha breast vs bottle!!! Just wait till they're teenagers..."

soverylucky it's because we're not allowed to have any discussion about FF whatsoever without being told we're defective as parents and having 'WILL SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN' screamed at us til our eardrums perforate.

Actually I FF my DD because she has had such an advantageous start in life that I felt it was only fair to level the playing field for the other children out there. It didn't work, she is still amazing!

Hmmmm one poster is over on the TV thread justifying screen time for babies?Obviously it's ok for some to read "research" and make informed parenting choices but not others.

Chairman not you,somebody else.

Do threads on this board have to follow a particular format - linear? Sticking only to the topic in the OP? Or do they do what most other lively group discussions involving dozens of people with a range of opinions do - go off at tangents, split into different streams, develop a life of their own?

This board encourages free debate and most very lively threads eventually go off-piste in some ways. It's part of what makes this board so popular.

And of course you know what to do if the thread has taken a turn you don't like or are not interested in?

Polkadot I saw that too. Interesting, no?

Shagmond, so what you're saying is that you and Babies can come on here and hijack what was a supportive thread for FF mums and we all have to bugger off because of your proselytising? Presumably we then start another FF thread because there's a vacuum out there when it comes to FF, only for that thread to be hijacked by shouty people and so on.

Can't you just leave us bad parents to discuss how best to abuse our children with our ill-informed feeding 'choices' (inverted commas because some of us didn't choose) and, I dunno, go and polish your World's Best Mummy mug collections or something.

we used to have a FF support thread for this very reason. That was a couple of years ago. I'd start one if I were you

I keep trying to step back from the screen and not post on this thread because I find it quite frustrating on both sides. I am always shocked online about how entrenched people seem to be and it is almost like they exist in a vacuum and have absolutely no undertsanding at all of the other sides position. In my life time I have only met one mother who I did not respect for her parenting decisions because to my mind they were misguided and somewhat cruel. Everyone else in my personal albeit limited experience without exception did what they did for the best for their families. Maybe I am alone here and that is not a lot of posters experiences but whether a woman ff or bf they all had their reasons for doing what they did and their experiences were based on their own personal experiences. In real life I discuss my influences and experiences with others and hope that are never seen as an attempt to undermine god I would be mortified if that happened but here that seems to be a free for all.

That said there are 2 things which totally grate with me on this issue

1. Marketing of any form on formula I cannot stand it I think it is morally and ethically repulsive and that includes marketing of formula in developing counties. I say that having happily, with reasons I am absolutely satisified and confident with, ff my first 2 children. Breastfeeding is a public health issue and it is always, always better for babies to have breast milk and anything that tries to pretend it is coming close to breast milk is just plain deceptive and from reading this post it is very clear how successful those marketing campaigns are at influencing clearly intelligent women who are still willing to try to defend formula as being almost as good as breast feeding for babies.

2. Pointless breastfeeding promotion without any decent support to breast feeding women to back up the promotion, drives me mental. The midwifes at my hosptial did their box ticking pressure antenatal exercise at every visit; absolutely no support for women who were feeding post natally drove me bananas.

By the way I heated bottles in the nighttime and while I didn't find that faff I did find waiting the 45 minutes or so for the bottle to empty a pain in my arse.

Thanks Funnys. I'm not sure I'm the person for the job. I'm 37 weeks preg and planning to try BF, though may be FF as I had to last time. Hope one of the other FF mums does though. I'd have killed for one last time. If BF doesn't work out I'll consider it.

Want to add one more thing - nothing that has been said on this thread appears to have persuaded any FF mums to change their mind. There isn't a single post saying 'Now I've seen the evidence I'll definitely EBF next time.' Personally - and speaking as someone who always did want to BF as a first option, with DS and this baby - I think the BF cheerleaders on this thread have presented BF advocacy in a very poor light. Most of my friends BF and virtually all have sensible and well-balanced views on the subject. I guess if anyone has happened on this thread I want them to know that thankfully many of the views and attitudes on here are not representative of the majority.

Feed your child how best you are able. Most people won't even notice, let alone start barking stats at you.

Chairman I fully intended to make a better hash of EBF my second child. I lasted 4 weeks. He was losing weight, I was losing my mind and so we both decided to stop. Oh OK I decided to stop! The FF support thread was great. We could discuss why we decided to stop BF, how difficult it was or even why we never even started without a load of BF guilt trips. Which is what they very much feel like when you tried but failed folks.

Second time round I was far more confident in stopping btw. So while I wish you the very best, you do what is right for you. Maybe in a few months you will start a FF support thread.....Hopefully not, just perhaps

I found the FF support thread really useful. I am a bit puzzled now as to why it wasn't invaded.

Chairman - I joined this thread when the discussion had already strayed a LONG way from the OP onto the topic of why the difficulties of bf. I pointed out - quite reasonably - that the massive number of people finding bf hard and stopping bf very early in the UK was a reflection of more than just the intrinsic nature of bf itself, and was something to do with cultural attitudes and expectations surrounding feeding. I don't think it was a bad point to make on a thread where people are exploring why bf feels so difficult.

I'm honestly, completely sick of people on this thread insisting that voicing concerns about formula amounts to criticising mothers and making a case for a restriction of choice when it comes to how people feed their baby.

It isn't a criticism of mothers.

It doesn't mean that choice should be restricted.

It just doesn't.

Comments like "being told we're defective as parents" are just fucking childish and unfair, because nobody has said this. And you weaken your argument by saying they have. It's a straw man argument which is used to smear and discredit breastfeeding advocacy and it stinks.

I chose to drink 2 or 3 drinks a week during my pregnancies, based on what I read at the time, I believed it was safe and a reasonable choice. 7 years on from the birth of my youngest, having read subsequent research and re-evaluated the evidence on which I made the decision that it was ok to drink, I now have serious misgivings about drinking in pregnancy and if I ever - god forbid - had another baby I would DEFINITELY not consume any alcohol. I worry about how even the small amount of alcohol I consumed affected my children, especially as one of them has special needs. But if someone came on a thread on mumsnet posted - as the course of a general discussion about a healthy pregnancy - about how important it was not to drink, and kept arguing the case, putting forward the evidence in the face of dozens of posters insisting it was all a storm in a tea-cup, I wouldn't be one of the ones shouting 'HOW DARE YOU IMPLY I'M A TERRIBLE MOTHER' and rubbishing the research without even taking the time to read it or think about it.

I'm amazed how defensive you are and how willing you are to believe that other people think you're a shit parent because you chose - on the basis of what you believed(and still believe) to be true - to ff your child. You really WANT to believe other people are incredibly mean and judgemental. Why? If you can paint the person presenting evidence which challenges your beliefs about what's best as a unreasonable cunt does it make you feel better about your choices?

What shagmund said. Exactly.

Numerous posters have asked for this thread to return to its original point, both before and since you joined in. I make sarcastic comments because of your shoutyness and inability to listen when people ask not to be lectured because frankly it gets on my tits. And to be then told, basically, if you don't like it then get off the thread - exasperated is not the word! . This should never have become a BF v FF thread. It has been completely hijacked.

I hope someone out there starts a proper FF support thread and if they do let's make damn sure MN admins police it so it's truly a safe space for us to have practical discussions about FF without facing judgement or having stats barked at us.

Why don't you sod off and start a breast is best thread somewhere and leave those of us who didn't want to be sucked into that whole debate alone.

"There isn't a single post saying 'Now I've seen the evidence I'll definitely EBF next time.'"

Possibly because there are dozens of ff mums here who are repeatedly rubbishing the evidence that's put forward, engaging in character assassination, implying that the benefits of breastfeeding are actually imaginary (cue the poster insisting that regardless of all the evidence put forward by the NHS, no babies have actually ever really lost out by not being breastfed). Oh, and then leavening the thread with dozens of posts describing breastfeeding as hideous and quite likely to fail, regardless of what help the mum gets (note how few of the mums who describe having problems with bf mention having seen a proper breastfeeding specialist) and formula feeding as easy and convenient.

"Feed your child how best you are able. Most people won't even notice, let alone start barking stats at you"

Yes - because if you hold strong views about this issue, and are prepared to engage in a debate in support of breastfeeding on an internet board, this means you believe in walking up to ff mothers in r/l and berating them - uninvited - with statistics.

As I said - character assassination and utter bollox. Shame on you.

Will add, that if we ever end up like Norway where 98% of women leave hospital breastfeeding, and 80% are still going at six months, it's going to be very strange for that generation of mothers (us) of whom only a small fraction breastfed for more than a couple of months, to be welcoming their grandchildren into a world where women are expected to breastfeed- because they pretty much all do - and breastfeeding is expected to work (and does work) for the vast majority.

What that will feel like - when you've raised your own children taking it for granted that breastfeeding often fails and that it's ok at a societal level for very few babies to be breastfed, to live in a culture where breastfeeding is highly visible, is ubiquitous, is expected and is highly valued? This is the situation for grandmothers in Norway. Breastfeeding rates there were as bad as ours in the 1970's, but they've really turned things around culturally.

I'll start this thread again....

Shag (which still think fab name btw...) - am genuinely (maybe that makes me stupid?) saddened by the turn in your posts? You and I (opposite ends of the ability to BF spectrum sadly) had a discussion where you had used the term 'breastfeeding failure' & I pointed out that that that word (the failure bit) was really damaging to those who may already be suffering with the fact that they COULD.NOT.BF. - to which your response was a beyond reasonable and appreciated (in terms of a sensible dialogue):

Stoic - 'I take your point. I don't like the term 'failure to progress in labour', so maybe I shouldn't use it vis breastfeeding' (may not be verbatim, but it's an accurate reflection). How in God's name did you get from that level of communication to the one above to Polka?:

^"Shag you refuse to listen so I refuse to engage."

Plonka, I think what you actually mean is "Shag - you're refusing to agree with me, and I have no answer to the very valid points you make, therefore I refuse to engage".^

I recall Polka and I having a run-in on a smacking thread (her pro, me anti), so this is not me here as Polka's bessie mate or something; just as one Mum/woman genuinely staggered that another Mumwoman would dismiss her POV as it's somehow not valid, OR that she (or anyone) implied you were an 'unreasonable cnt'. Even Babies - who so so SO many people were appalled by - did not get called a 'cnt' and nor should she (though IMHO it was bang on right that she got pulled up). I think her earlier posts were vile; misplaced on this thread; self-serving; egotistical and beyond arrogant (as did many others) - but no-one implied/suggested/called her a cnt*?

This to me is beyond simple. It's a thread about FORMULA FEEDING AND PROBS LOVELY PEEPS MAY HAVE WITH IT. Ergo, it is NOT the place for BF zealots (am deliberately not using the word 'advocate', as pretty certain a fair few of us who HAD to FF would actually refer to ourselves as BF 'advocates' even if we weren't fortunate enough to be able to do it - with ALL that then seems to invite from others) to lay out their table; cutlery; stats and fuck knows what else. Let alone dismiss someone in the way you just did? Am absurdly saddened by it - just feels so very, very, VERY, wrong.

NB - Also can't help that not one of the people coming across as BF bullies has addressed my post using analogous situations? Hmmm, wonder why that is when so very vocal re the one thing they COULD do that we FF'ers couldn't.

Ahem

TY Olivia

Formula Feeders Faff Free Fred for those who wish to discuss safe formula feeding!

I have a genuine question.

I was just looking on a major manufacturer of bottles/infant feeding equipment, and they are giving TOTALLY the wrong advice about preparing feeds.

Who do I complain to? Do I complain directly to the manufacturer, or someone else.

I can not believe what I am reading!!!!! Fucksake. Idiots.

This just proves the point about the lack of information out there for FF'ing, even the fucking manufacturers of bottles can't get it right!

Fuming!!

Fuck it.

Tommee Tippee (have print screened!) say this on their website:

Health guidelines recommend you make up bottles one at a time. It may be easier to store the cooled, boiled water sealed in the bottles and then add the formula at feeding time.

NO! Regular formula (1st milks etc) should not be made with cooled boiled water ffs!!!!

I'm still that they have this on their website!

Detective, you star! Have posted already as we had similar issues. Fingers crossed this thread lasts. I guess we need to not engage with it and all of us stick to the purpose of the thread.

Re the guidelines, I would expect manufacturers of formula and feeding equipment to have to adhere to DoH/NHS guidelines. Maybe it's worth complaining to Tommee Tippee and/or the appropriate regulator. As has been stated on here there's such a dearth of info out there that people will believe and follow this advice. Worrying.