to think that having high expectations for childbirth and breast feeding contributes to PND?

[Alizzle]

just wondering as my DH seems to think so and I'm beginning to think he's right.

Oh and good point fairylea about sleep: someone on MN once mentioned the links between serotonin and sleep to me. I forget details but definitely feel that lack of sleep will make anyone depressed even if not clinically so.

I was lucky to have good birth, fairly easy bf experience but DS is a poor sleeper (still, at 1yo). At times the lack of sleep has affected me so much that DH has urged me to go to GP and talk about PND. I know, having been treated for anxiety in the past, and been close to people with depression, that I have not been properly depressed but certainly my mental state has not been 100 per cent. So there is more to it than expectations.

Miaow, I'm not sure the phrasing of the post does imply blame. Having "high expectations" could just be seen to be having a birth without trauma - not necessarily pain relief free/ water birth/ breathing baby out stuff. My expectations were that I would just have the baby without too much horror - I felt that was a pretty high expectation! I was lucky because my birth was pretty straightforward.

I really struggled getting bf going, though, and it's only because I'm too stubborn for my own good that we eventually got it established. However, now we are coming to weaning, I am dropping milk feeds and thinking about how it will work when I go back to work, and I am already feeling wobbly about not feeding any more. And that's with nearly 8 months of successful feeding behind me, so what it must be awful if you feel you have to "give up" without "getting it right".

I don't know if it causes it, but I am sure the pressure to do things in the accepted manner certainly cannot help those who are pre-disposed to depression.

Yanbu.

Ooh my life, massive x-posting!!

Ah well, I have a book in front of me called 'Great Expectations: A Prospective Study of Women's Expectations and Experiences of Childbirth'.

Apparently women who expect labour to be awful and expect not to be listened to have the worst psychological outcomes whether they got what they wanted in labour or not

According to this study "The most important finding.... is that in every single case where there is a significant difference between women with high and low expectations it is the women with high expectations who have the better psychological outcome and the women with low expectations who have the worst. This is in direct contradiction to the popular idea of women with high expectations setting themselves up for failure and postnatal depression. The other important point is that the relationship between expectations and psychological outcome is independent of the relationship between events and psychological outcome."

So - go figure!

This is the book:

here

I felt like a failure when I couldn't bf. My Nct classes made it look so easy (ha!). I felt like I failed him as a Mum. I wanted to bf and never thought it wouldn't happen. It's just another thing to feel guilty about.

YANBU Op, the sad thing is the pressure comes from other women.

I felt bad because of other people's interrogation of my birth and feeding methods. As if waiting for me to pronounce a failure. I was scared to say I had an epidural.

I think it's worth being determined, but realistic. There are things you can do to make the likelihood of both going 'to plan' - keeping active during labour, avoiding induction, immediate skin to skin etc. Being aware that things don't always go the way you imagine them to is half the battle though, and sounds like you're already there :)

What Wolfie said. I was so worried about giving birth. I researched every option and had 'whatever happens happens' on my birth plan. I had a lovely water birth in a midwife unit that left me feeling empowered.

I had a total ducking disaster bf. Infective mastitis leading to blood poisoning which meant an ambulance to a hospital and an 8 day stay. 3 IV antibiotics - serious allergic reaction to one. Oral antibiotics - minor allergic reaction to one. Cracked nipples that scabbed over, milk blisters, fucking agony at every feed.

I just assumed bf would happen. The NHS bf class covered none of the above. Turns out DD has a posterior tt and lip tie as well as an arched palette on one side due to her asymmetry. None of that was mentioned in the class either.

So, I may have post natal anxiety. Assessment in March. Go figure.

People are so used to arranging things the way they want those days- e.g the perfect wedding so they expect to have 'the perfect' birth. It doesn't work that way. It is made worse by the fact that they often see it as their fault.
They make elaborate birth plans, which I find very strange, if you have never given birth before how can you possibly know what you want? I never had one, I just waited to see and went with the flow.

Anecdotally... I was prepared for the worst giving birth, and found it a piece of piss :)

I should imagine there are many factors contributing to PND.

Apparently there is a strong link between low levels of support for the mother and PND. I think that makes sense for me.

I don't think I really can compute the high expectations thing. Surely if the experience meets your expectations (with lots of support, and thus enough rest, and time to enjoy the new baby) that's going to be quite different to an experience whereby you have imagined it's going to be lovely and then you discover you are all on your own, dealing with an enormous change/amount of labour, with a partner being an arse and family that are crap.

So maybe that whole "hogh expectations" thing needs unpacking?

I think OP that the word "expectation" says it all. I expected to be able to bf. I couldn't and felt that was my fault, I was useless and a complete failure.
I feel more information should be given about the chance of needing a section etc and that not all of us can bf (I know most can.)

oh and I missed flouncing's point about women not being around children etc - again totally agree, but I think it can be a double edged thing. On one hand they have no idea of what childbirth and caring for tiny baby is really like but on other they may have pessimistic expectations from watching women howl on one born every minute or hearing people complain of exhaustion all the time (which I realise I did upthread). They don't have a realistic picture of the drudgery nor the understanding that it contains such joy within that drudgery and pain.

That's fascinating shagmund I wonder if it's something to do with people who have high expectations are inherently more positive in their outlook so they also have a positive take on things post-birth?

Should add, that maybe this is to do with the fact that women with high expectations (I include myself in this group - I expected to find childbirth an amazing - if challenging - experience and an adventure, and that's exactly how I found it) perhaps are more optimistic, have higher self esteem and more confidence and are more likely to interpret events positively. Or maybe are more likely to be listened to. Who knows.

Re: breastfeeding - we ought to expect to be able to breastfeed, because the vast majority of women are able to do so, at least physically. In other countries most women are able - in both a physical and emotional sense - to cope with breastfeeding. Something very odd is going on in the UK that such a huge proportion of women find breastfeeding socially and emotionally unsupportable, to the point that many claims it drives them into mental illness. This clearly isn't happening to anything like the same number of mums in many other countries.

So you have to ask - what is it about UK culture that drives breastfeeding mums over the edge and makes normal, happy breastfeeding impossible for them?

Star girl. That's awful. Puts my bf woes to shame. Wishing you well for March. Get well soon xx

YANBU. It's okay to have high hopes, as long as they are not expectations and you realise that things beyond your control will most likely happen.

blimey! cross posting all over the shop. but yes I am ok. He thinks I'm struggling with something and has urged me to see my gp, I have finally agreed that something wasn't right after I heard myself say 'if we split up you can have him, I don't want him'. I'm just disappointed that my baby is amazing, sleeps really well, is a really happy boy but I don't have this amazing bond everyone talks about. I have been to my gp and am working myself up to explaining that my moods are a bit worse then 'a bit up and down'. so in short, I'm okay right now.

I like what Shagmund has said.

blossom - cross posted. That's exactly what I think. How you feel about your birth is primarily influenced by your mindset before the event, and not what happens during the birth itself.

Alizzle yes it does make sense. There is a strong feeling that vaginal birth are 'proper' birth and cs not (see the 'too posh to push' comments for example) and you wouldn't be the only one who has felt disappointed in having an emcs instead of a vaginal delivery.

Perhaps the issue isn't your expectation to be able to deliver a baby vaginally (which a lot of women do) but that if you don't you have failed in some ways. This is a feeling shared by lots of women and in some ways we have been conditioned to it as the best way to deliver a baby - and safest and better for the baby- is the natural way as we have been told. And of course, as any mum we want the best for our dcs which means a 'natural' birth.

Now, how on earth you could have 'failed' when your baby is stuck is lost to me. An emcs means that you and your baby are alive whereas not so long ago (and still true in some places) you would just have died or suffered horrific injuries in the process. How that is better than a cs....

xpost.

Don't worry about the bonding issue. I know it feels scary and very very sad. But having had PND myself, I also do know that you can create this bond with your lovely ds. You WILL.