to not know what unconditional parenting is?!

[GirlOutNumbered]

Just read it on a thread. I have no idea what this is?

See this is why I have found UP to be unworkable when thinking about following it to the letter. We generally try and give free choice where possible when it comes to clothing (by where possible I mean he has to wear some form of school uniform, that's not negotiable) but if he's refusing to wear a coat and it's FREEZING I will say "ok, you don't have to wear a coat but you DO have to put on (however many) extra jumpers/vests instead".
He then has the choice, but I won't let him go out dressed totally inappropriately at age 4...

Other situations I have found unworkable for us include toilet training - after 2 years of on/off accidents we have resorted to a reward chart..

Overall, though, I probably explain things far more than a lot of you would deem necessary, but I find it works for us, it works for ds - if he understands the reasoning behind something and is given an element of free choice over how he does it or in some cases if he does it, I find he is more likely to make the "right" choice (in our eyes!) in the future.

I'm also not sure about this whole "wanting them to be liked" thing (and this isn't really related to UP). I do want my DS to be liked, of course I do. I want him to learn manners, and to be respectful of others. But at the same time I want to be careful in that he doesn't feel that being liked and accepted by others is the be all and end all. It's not. I am like that - care in an ott way what people think about me and how I am coming across - and I really, really want ds to have the guts and strength in himself to be who he wants to be without feeling he has to conform to every little thing and social norm.
After all, social norms vary from society to society..

I don't mind carrying coats, I am not a martyr. Bags I draw the line at - they choose whether to carry or not (we don't have school bags)

So, what if you go out for the day, or a walk, or the beach, or whatever and your children have packed bags and carried them, then on the way home they don't want to carry them. Do you just leave them behind or what?

Also, just carrying the coat until the child is cold enough to wear it, doesn't teach them anything. Except that they can be fickle as long as mug mum is around.

what do you want to teach them, fairenuff?
If it's that if they don't put the coat on they will be cold, it does teach them that, surely? As they get older and go out without mum/dad they will also be old enough to see the correlation (if mum/dad isn't with me, carrying my coat, I'm clearly not going to be able to put it on..)
But that approach does avoid a potentially unnecessary argument or battle with a young child. And that's the "pick your battles" approach, not necessarily
UP!

Where do you draw the line though? I saw a parent in children's a&e one time (we were in due dd1s wheezing) during fly season. The child aged about 6/7 had a temp, q long running discussion with nurse on if calpol had reduced temp. No child won't take it. Mother was given some for her to take but merely simpered her dd was choosing not to take it.

They were eventually taken in (nurses were trying to treat and Street in the waiting room is was so busy). So I always wondered how it would end? NHS resources wasted on a kid who may have been fine treated at home? Do they have to force treatment on the chikd as the mother won't reward/punish to get it done?

Now I don't know if the mother was UP or not but I'm interested to know if it's medically necessary and despite all the "but it'll make you better" discussions your dc won't medicate what do you do?

*flu

I would hate to see fly season

I'm confused at how a punishment dished out by someone else (eg shool detention for being late) is being classed as a "natural consequence". It seems that some parents have no problem with their children being punished

Part and parcel of growing up is understanding different settings have different rules the community has its own laws.and all my children are expected to abide by them as well as engage fully in the school this means accept sanctions issued by the school with good grace and learn from them. This is called following the schools rules and supporting the school to enforce them not abdicating responsibility.

The poster up thread who asked about lateness and how I would deal with a large 10yo refusing to leave the house, tbh I don't know, out of all of my children not one of them has done this over about age 5

But surely with the cold and the coat situation, the child would only experience consequences and learn if no coat was brought along so they have to deal with the cold?

Some of the parents here explaining their UP techniques don't really sound like they are following UP in the way I have seen it discussed among dedicated UP parents (lurked here and their as it's fascinating) elsewhere. Just taking the bits that make sense to them and they think they can cope with which sounds sensible enough and generally I'd say what most parents I know do.

Mavis seems to be the only one who is practicing UP in the way I understand it to be.

Also can understand why some parents don't feel confident in their parenting and look to books for answers and advice, not everyone had the best upbringing and many of us are desperate to not repeat what we experienced. No reason to poke fun at parents who struggle and want to do better that their own parents did.

I don't understand what is wrong with carrying your DCs' bags

It seems to only be seen as a problem on MN.

I always carried my DDs school bags/coats and lunch boxes when they were at Primary School. We had a 3/4 of a mile walk, along a country footpath. I didn't see anything wrong in me carrying their heavy bags, whilst they ran or scootered ahead with their friends.

It certainly doesn't make a parent a mug or a martyr.

Yip, I often carry bags and coats too when they are young, though not far to the car. Guess I just like to see them running ahead playing or scootering after sitting in class. And no it doesn't mean I stuff them with snacks and let them leave all the cupboards open.

I also think rewards have their place. Its not something I use on a day to day basis but when toilet training dd she developed a phobia about poos in the potty. I reassured her endlessly, but she couldn't get her head around it. We read books. I tried everything, but she was making herself ill by holding it in. In the end I offered a chocolate button for each success. This motivated her to overcome her fears and within a week or so she got the hang of it and no longer neede the treat. Job done, crisis over. I really can't see the downside, or how this could in any way have had a negative impact.
While I concede that an over use of rewards may not be the best idea, surely they have their place.

I don't understand what is wrong with carrying your DCs' bags

It seems to only be seen as a problem on MN

You should hear teachers on the subject! I am not talking about 5 year olds (although they can manage a book bag) but 10 year olds who can be as big as Mum!
They don't even ask her if she would mind!¬ It is out of school-Sherpa Mum is handed the stuff without a 'please' or 'thank you'. The fact that mother doesn't see it as a problem shows the problem!

And most of them are only going a few hundred yards to the car!

Phew, my ten yr old is much smaller then me, was worried there all the teachers were talking about me. Though he does carry his own bag anyway, usually.

Completely with Mavis I do the same as much as I can.
And tbh *because of dc2 SN, it had to be like this as neither rewards nor punishments worked with him.
Explaining, demonstrating (ie do as I do) worked very well.

I think we all have some 'trigger points' things that we see as non negotiable. Teeth brushing was negociable in my house. I have never brushed my dcs teeth (Try to have your DH do that to you and you will see how uncomfortable it is), gave them a toothbrush and hope some bits of teeth would be cleaned a bit.
With the idea that children will not be able to brush their teeth properly on their won until they are 7yo, I decided not to put any pressure on the dcs until that age. As it turns out,they both had been brushing their teeth wo a complain much before that (and the help of an electric toothbrush has made brushing more efficient too).

The 'not hitting problem' has been much more of a trigger point for us because dc2 (HFA) is lashing out a lot. But thanks to UP, it means that when he lashes out, I can see the anger and the fear/anxiety rather than a child who is misbehaving. So that's what I concentrate on. His real needs for support at that time and then we cam talk about not hurting and what else we can do. And it is slowly working but I have felt more than once the need to be 'stronger' in my approach because well... I have dc1 that I need to protect too.
In reality though, if you were seen me in the street after such an incident, you would probably tut a lot.... I usually end up comforting dc2 a lot and intervening before dc2 uses hands to teach them how to find a compromise. Lots of talking, turn taking, expressing what you want/need and then trying to find solutions together. That IS time consuming but both dcs are learning skills that few of their mates have.

But surely with the cold and the coat situation, the child would only experience consequences and learn if no coat was brought along so they have to deal with the cold?
But isn't it cruel to leave a child getting so cold that their lips get blue just for you to prove a point? The child will already have learnt that no coat = getting cold at the time you have handed the coat over to them. But for the parent not to take the coat on purpose 'to teach them a lesson' is something different when the same parent would actually take a book for the child if there is a long wait, a snack for an afternoon outing etc...

if your child was blue lipped with cold, and was visibly shivering, but still denying they were cold (as children do).
Mines have never felt the need to express their need of independence/being a person in their own right in that way.

I don't think it is so much that the parent takes it-it is more the assumption that mother is just there to act as personal servant and there is never a 'please would you take my bag?' first or even a 'thank you' once she has it.

I don't understand what is wrong with carrying your DCs' bags
For me it is an issue because I am not their servant.
Also I really believe it is very important to teach independence to children as soon as possible. A 5yo is able to carry their bag and/or lunch bag. Asking them to do so is treating as a responsible person. A person that is able to make informed decisions, which is after all the premise in UP. (Otherwise, what would be the point of explaining?)

Btw, in primary school school aren't heavy.
And if the children are using a bike/scooter, you can buy them a rucksack so they can have their school stuff and their lunch bag in and still ride their bike/scooter or walk for 3/4 of a mile.

But what if they never want to brush their teeth?

and with the coat thing, ok they realise not wearing the coat makes them cold, they then wear the coat you are carrying. What about the next time if they refuse to wear the coat - do you just carry it again? I might carry a coat or jumper when they are little but If I feel it is too cold to go out without a coat then I would force the issue. I do let them decide for themselves sometimes if they are just round the corner at the park and now they are a little older.

But isn't it cruel to leave a child getting so cold that their lips get blue just for you to prove a point?

I wouldn't leave them to get cold in the first place. I am the adult and I would make sure they put the coat on in the first place!
Teeth have to be cleaned-I would be very fed up as an adult with bad teeth if I had a wet mother who said 'but you wouldn't clean them when we asked you to'!
The orthodontist was very clear to 15yr old DS with his brace-he said to him 'if you don't clean them properly your mother will have to do it for you'! I actually used bribery -money if he didn't get told off by the orthodontist. The orthodontist was very pleased on the next visit and I owned up to a bribe. He said 'I don't care what it takes as long as they are properly cleaned'. Sometimes it really doesn't matter if they do something for the reward rather than because they want to do it-if it is just very important to do it.

One of my favourite sayings was 'what did your last servant die of?' Lots of children don't even realise that they are treating their mother like a doormat because she never points it out! There is also when do you stop? And not all DCs suddenly reverse it and start carrying mums bags, without being asked.