to not know what unconditional parenting is?!

[GirlOutNumbered]

Just read it on a thread. I have no idea what this is?

I'm not blaming anyone on here for the name; sorry if it came across that way, I didn't mean that at all. I just think the name is a bad choice.

I am currently UPing DS1 who is refusing to get dressed by lying in bed on MN ignoring him I am ill, that's my excuse.

If he is school age and it is half term you can UP quite happily. It is when you need to be out of the house by a certain time that it doesn't work so well!

Well if you look at that thread you will see that not everyone is finding doing things following your instincts or doing what you think is best isn't always the best (I am thinking about a recent thread about smacking for example).

So I don't really have a problem with someone writing a book and telling people what he/she thinks isn't quite right.

I have much more problem with people who say that such and such approach is rubbish wo having read the book and only based on 'experience' (I am sometimes wondering which one as I have never ever met anyone in RL doing UP.)

It worked! He is dressed. UP or boredom?

Has anyone been able to explain yet how UP works with more than one child at a time? How about with, say, 3 year old twins.

The poster who said about their child making the choice about whether to get ready for school on time or be in trouble for being late. How does that work when you need to walk three children to school and one of them is not getting ready on time?

Also, in primary school, are children really 'in trouble' for being late? I have one child in particular who is regularly late at my school and we, as staff, alwys assumed it was the parent's fault, not the child. After all, a six year old can't be held responsible for getting themselves to school on time can they?

With this particular family, the attendance is starting to fall close to being a problem and if it continues, the head teacher will need to speak to the parents. Are they really going to say it's up to the child? What if the child keeps missing school and the truancy officer gets involved. are the parents still going to allow the child to make these decisions and 'face the consequences'?

Could someone please explain. TIA

I hadn't heard the term unconditional parenting before this thread, but from the author's website I can see the principals are much the same as those we have at our preschool. No reward/no punishment etc.

It is different to what a lot of people are used to but i can assure you it is not nonsense and that the children respond very well.

I have found it a bit like learning a new language, the temptation is to say good girl or similar but instead you describe their behaviour rather than approve/disapprove. The theory being that the child learns to self appraise and to depend on self motivation rather than other motivation.

Essentially it is about training children to respect themselves and others, and has come about as a reaction to reward style parenting which is considered to create a manner of entitlement which, quite literally, spoils the child.

Getting out of the house on time seems to be something people fret about.

We have never had a problem with this. Both children get up and get ready, pack their bags and even make me a cup of tea some mornings, one 12 one 8yrs. I'm not certain why people have problems but it seems that plenty of talking over the importance of school and the importance of time keeping to their future prospects and happiness worked for us. I don't sit my children down and "talk" at them but make sure the messages they receive are always the same. I am also honest with DS1 and say "I bunked off, smoked cigarettes and achieved average results" I am not afraid to seem less than perfect if it gives the message that working hard at school will lead to better outcomes/incomes. I guess it comes down to priming them, yes of course that means that is to some extent coercive but if the child doesn't feel coerced and their behaviour isn't constantly at odds with their internal dialogue and their will, they are less apt to make bad choices and rebel simply for the sake of it.

If you're struggling to get out of the house on time then you need to build in more time to get ready. I struggle with this and occasionally get cross with DS but then feel guilty because I'm aware that it's me who is the one who can tell the time and understands the implications of being late whereas he doesn't.

I don't have more than one child but I know of various families who do and who do UP. Admittedly most of them home educate, but there are other things that you don't want to be late for aside from school, so they must do some time management.

I know the name is a bit wanky but it's just a shorthand... and yes there has been a lot of negativity on this thread but the "version of UP" described sounds nothing like what I do with DS, so.. yeah.

My method for getting DS to nursery on time relies on TV as a timekeeper. He knows when Peppa Pig finishes on Milkshake that it's time to get dressed and leave. When we stick to this we're almost never late. Also I motivate him by reminding him that if he gets there before circle time he can put his scooter in the storage shed by himself (I have no idea why this means so much to him, but it does) but if we're late then he has to sit in the circle and I put his scooter away.

Ah but Bertie you are offering a reward there.

if he gets there before circle time he can put his scooter in the storage shed by himself (I have no idea why this means so much to him, but it does)

This still doesn't explain why so many parents attempting UP are apparently getting it wrong, as the UPers on this thread claim.

I've only read half the thread so I apologise if its moved on, but a lot of the situations people are describing are not up, just shite parenting! Lets be clear, if a child is hitting another child, it is not up to just stand there and tell said child to 'stop when they're ready'. Seriously.
If we're going to discuss up, let's discuss the reality and not irrelevant situations involving ineffectual parenting!
I'll be back later, I'm interested but have to go out now :) damn Real Life, interfering with my mn-ing ;)

Yes but not everything which is remotely tied to behaviour is against UP, not as I understand it. I feel it's important for him not to miss the announcements etc they make at circle time so I don't let him miss it just to put his scooter away. But if we get there in plenty of time, then no problem.

Maybe I don't do UP I just use it as a shorthand to mean that I avoid generic punishments/rewards. As I said earlier, I haven't read the book, just taken parts which I've read on forums etc.

From what I gather though the book is pretty woolly and just tells you about the disadvantages of naughty steps/reward charts and isn't particularly forthcoming with ideas on how to handle certain situations even though it keeps going on about boundaries.

Personally I think UP is aimed at entirely the wrong audience as it's not a practical guide, it's more of an interesting psychological/child development idea, and would be better aimed at child psychologists or teachers or development specialists. Then a parents' guide would be more like How To Talk. There's a real gap in the market for a HTT type book for toddlers.

It's bizarre because it is supported by a lot of governing bodies - OFSTED I believe advocate a more holistic kind of approach for childminders (but don't provide guidance on how to do this) and my SIL was told that with her adopted children she was not allowed to use discipline such as smacking (fair enough) or the naughty step, sending to rooms etc as it "undermines their self-esteem". But she was totally incredulous as to how she was supposed to manage bad behaviour because, again, they haven't actually suggested any practical things to help.

Bertie I agree with a lot of the principles. But to say no rewards is daft imo. We do offer rewards and punishments but UPers call them natural consequences.

You could just as easily say if he gets there before circle time he can put a sticker on his chart by himself (I have no idea why this means so much to him, but it does) and you would have the same result.

At school, I will often offer the reluctant child a choice, you can do your work now with the rest of the class, or you can do it at playtime. Which would you prefer. Is that UPing, or is that a punishment?

I think the is a confusion here, or just I am confused!

I thought UP was totally unconditional ie the child totally sets their own boundaries, rules and the patent just discusses the best choices, they can't do anything if a child fails to make those choices they just face the natural consequences?

But then lots of UPers are on saying things that sound suspiciously like "rules"albiet labelling them "expectations". So Berties boy gets rewarded for being on time by putting him scooter away. Socks children get removed from situations where their actions don't reflect the families expectations rules.

That's not unconditional?

Oh and mini you asked earlier if those on a salary worked for no reward. Well yes in my last job I worked ridiculous hours and weekends with no overtime pay as I think I am good at my job and am proud when my campaigns succeed. My parents talked a lot but they also bribed, paid for gcse results as I was clever but a petulant cow at the time and they didn't want me to fuck up my future as a hormonal teenager making bad choices.. So surely I should only be motivated to work for rewards?

I don't work extra hours, I'm out the door on the dot

But I have to say I do love my job and when I started working there I didn't 'need' the money, it was extra. Now, of course, I've got used to it and do need the income.

If I won the lottery and never had to work again, I would definately give up my job. Love it as I do, it is still a means to an end and there are plenty of others things I'd rather be doing with my time, if I was a lady of luxury.

I thought UP was totally unconditional ie the child totally sets their own boundaries, rules and the patent just discusses the best choices, they can't do anything if a child fails to make those choices they just face the natural consequences?

Softly I thought this too. It seems that that is not the case. The parents do give rewards and punishments, they just call them consequences. All this time I have been UPing and I didn't even realise it!

Perhaps it's not unconditional, then. But I certainly don't let DS set all of his own rules and boundaries and rely only on natural consequences, because he'd have been dead by the time he could crawl. Every parent imposes some rules and boundaries even if that's just "No you cannot eat the slug pellets. Yes you must be restrained by a busy road."

That's what I'm saying - it is pretty logical and it's not devoid of anything which might look like a rule, punishment or reward. But these things don't exist only as punishments or rewards. The scooter has to be put away. The work has to be done (it can be done at playtime, or now) - it's the way it's worded or intended. If the child says OK then, I'll do it at playtime, does it and still has time to play, then they haven't missed playtime, but they've still got the work done. Perhaps they refuse every day and opt to do it in play time. If it's a valid choice rather than a punishment then you would accept this. If you say "Do the work now or you'll have to miss playtime" and they spend their playtime sitting on a quiet chair or writing lines or something, that's a punishment.

For the pp asking about more than one child, why on earth wouldn't it work with more kids.

Its not placing one person in a family at the centre of the universe, its not giving one the ability to do exactly what they want sod the impact it has on everybody else and its not letting anybody who does not have the full ability to choose there conduct do so.

If your that bothered about getting places on time then you just leave at the time you need to to know you will. It really is that simple, leave on time means you arrive on time.

But sock what if the child is arsing about, refusing to get dressed, etc. How do you get out of the house on time? It's not been a problem for me personally but I'm interested as to how a parent can do this without offering a reward or punishment.

Take this example. Two children, both boys aged 4 and 6. The 4 year old has been invited to a party and you want to leave the house at 9.00am on a Saturday. The 6 year old wants to play on his wii and is refusing to get dressed. It's 8.55, what do you do if you're UPing that does not involve a punishment or reward?

The finishing work in play time scenario made me chuckle. When DS1 was in year 2 he used to faff around so that the teacher made him stay in at play time. The teachers were puzzled because when he picked up the pen the work was finished in minutes and was fine. When I spoke to him he told me that he wanted to stay in at playtime and talk to the teachers. So giving him a choice punishment worked in his favour!

What I am finding interesting and perhaps pertinent here, the parents who claim not to use any UP methods are the parents putting forward all of the problem scenarios, is this because they aren't met with these problems or because they overwhelmingly are?

Refuse to get dressed? I can't remember my children refusing to get dressed. In fact I can't remember any outright refusal in recent history. So whilst it is harder to start with up to 4/5/6 years after that the child has learned to moderate their own behaviour because it is beneficial to them. They are not playing games of protracted stalling for reward because they know that you are not making bargains using reward or punishment. This means that a child then realises that they can not use their behaviour to "win" against the parent.

Mini of all the posters her you are doingthe most damage to UP.Bertie and socks are explaining and discussing, you sound smugger and more irritating by theminute and I refuse to believe your robots DC don't ever play up. They are human, all humans are falliable. If you really think they do no wrong I think you are one of those parents that are blind to their offsprings faults.

You have also asked the question "would you work for no reward" thinking the answer would be no hence up being correct. I have answered Yes although my parents used rewards alongside discussions (no punishments that I remember) so explain how I came to be self motivated please?

Then you gently pick up the child causing an issue and leave the house at 9 the same as you would if the child hadn't caused an issue.

The natural consequences of that would be the child is not dressed, I've had one who did this a few times so I accounted for it by keeping a pair of jeans and a sweatshirt in the car so they could get dressed in the car if they wanted to try and disrupt everybody.

Asking about work for reward is in relation the motivation to work not whether you are motivated. People can be motivated by all sorts of things. I asked the question because their is an assumption that children learn to behave and work towards goals for reward. Of course this happens where you use reward. What is the reward was the work itself and not something else, might you still be motivated?

Under a capitalist system, workers must be trained very early on to work for personal/economic rewards. People are not motivated to work for the sake of enjoyment. So in early life and in school we are laying the foundations that shape the "workers" behaviour, this really only benefits the people who we work for.