to not know what unconditional parenting is?!

[GirlOutNumbered]

Just read it on a thread. I have no idea what this is?

I do that with my children all the time. Consequences are great. Nothing teaches them quicker or more effectively.

If my dd isn't ready for a lift to school when dh leaves at 8.00am she has to walk, regardless of the weather. It's happened once.

When my ds couldn't find his door key I refused to lend him mine, he'll have to learn to take better care of his things.

They are teenagers now and they know if they don't put their clothes in the wash, they don't get washed. There are all sorts of natural consequences that don't actually involve me at all.

Ds got a detention for throwing a snowball at school. He said it wasn't fair.

Me: Did you know it was against the rules to throw snowballs?
Him: Yes but I didn't throw it at anyone.
Me: Did you know that there would be detention for anyone who did?
Him: Yes but others were doing it too.
Me: Did you choose to throw a snowball?
Him: Yeeees < dawning realisation >

Not sure if the detention is a consequence or punishment though. In my eyes it's a natural consequence.

One of the great things about consequences is that if you do it from when they are little, they do actually make fairly reasonable decisions as teenagers. Or at least mine do. So far...

And the absolute best bit is that it's their choice, their consequence. It's their decision whether they make the right choice or not so they cannot blame me at all. 's sweetly.

do parents who UP negotiate all the time and explain everything genuine question it sounds bloody exhausting when does it stop if you have to keep explaining to them what they did has a consequence when is it expected to click with them

Mrsjay - It clicked quite quickly once dd was 4ish.They just want to impress you so if you say the good/bad choice type of option then she 99% of time will go for the good one.

Detention is both - it's a consequence because it happens as a result of him breaking a rule but it's also a punishment imposed by the school because it doesn't really serve any purpose other than being a deterrent.

Well UP is more tiring in that you have to try and understand WHY your dc is doing x but in the long run, it makes it easier and hopefully they will pro into balanced, responsible afults that will think before doing rather than wonder how much they can get away with it.

But then I wouldn't send my time negotiating either, esp not with toddlers. It's about meeting their needs not their wants. Even though needs can be difficult to spit, esp with pre verbal children.

But then I wouldn't send my time negotiating either, esp not with toddlers. It's about meeting their needs not their wants. Even though needs can be difficult to spit, esp with pre verbal children.

well I sort of did this with mine as wants and needs are so different I have an adult child and she does think before she acts (well except last weekend where she thought shots were a good idea )

Its not really negotiating its reminders of consequence.

Very hard work until they are about 6/7 ish after that if its done right its not

OK, sorry Bertie, but this sentence made me want to throw things, regarding your child hitting another child:

Many would disagree as it's giving the child attention (and neutral/positive attention at that) even though they've misbehaved, but the UP perspective would be that actually you're teaching them to move away from someone who is annoying them

Yes. You are giving your child the reward of play time and attention with Mummy, and teaching them...er...that they should move away from the child that has them annoyed them, apparently, to the point of physically attacking them.
???
How is that preventing the violent behaviour from happening again?
And I don't agree that when children get a punishment they don't know what it's for. Beyond the age of about 3 they certainly do know that if they have used my Chanel lipstick to draw a mural on the wall then that is why Mummy is shouting meting out a punishment.
And if they don't know, you tell them, clearly.
I believe in positive reinforcement, but there is also a place for negative reinforcement. I don't not rob banks because I have a moral aversion to it. I don't rob banks because I would rather not go to Jail.

I have a friend who brings her kids up in a very UP way. Her 5 year old still hits and pinches. He was over at ours recently, with a mixed bunch of kids, all of whom were playing well together, and he really doesn't seem to know how to play properly with other kids.
He hits his Mum a lot too, which my ds was actually quite shocked by, as in my family hitting your Mum is about the worst thing you could do.
He is better since he started school, to be fair. His first day he came home with a bloody nose because he, apparently, hit the wrong kid.
Which was a shame.

TBH i have issues with child rearing experts making money out of their books and ideologies. children look for boundries they look for praise and they look for rewards it is how humans work whether people think they dont reward their children they actually are with attention etc etc

You've picked one part out of what I said that teaches. It doesn't just teach them to walk away (although walking away is preferable to hitting) - ideally you'd have stepped in before it got to the point of hitting, anyway, but very young children sometimes go straight to that because they have no other tools for managing the situation.

Also I don't know if you're aiming your comment at me supposedly thinking that children don't know what punishments are for - I do believe this, I just don't think it's the most constructive way to teach something, and I'd rather not spend my morning in conflict with a child because they're upset about getting a punishment and have then reacted to that and made me more annoyed in the process, which is usually what happens when I lose my patience with UP methods and take something off DS instead.

The thing is though children arnt that complicated to understand or control really are they unless they have special needs.

Sock why would you actually want the first 6 to 7 years to be 'very hard work?'

I just done see the point in it or that its actually even any different to do called 'normal parenting'

Think some people just see having children as another project to tackle really.

Oh and if you are negotiating with your your little treasure whilst he was standing on one if my kids hands while you tell them that its horrible because 'body's dd is crying' I am afraid your unconditional patented child might be man handled off my dd and be subjected to good old fashioned shouting rant about bring a nasty little shit( not those words if course)

Put down the books and stop making these so called experts rich.. Just parent sensibly.

From reading this thread, I can see that UP works very well for a lot of families, and I can see why.
However, I firmly believe that for some children of a certain temperament, it is inapproprite.
I think the bad reputation stems from children, a lot of posters (including myself) have encountered who are too young to truly empathise. A child who likes to hit and bite, despite years of patient explainations about feelings needs firmer direction in my opinion.
Its also gallling for parents to watch misbehaving children be cuddled and enjoy positive attention from their parent, while the victim is left distraught. Especially if it's not a rare occurance.
One size does not fit all. No one parenting technique will be suited to every child. All parents need to use a bit of common sense, and adapt based on their child's needs, rather than blindly following a set of guidelines, which are clearly not effective for all children.

I agree body. My boy is a pain in the ass when he is either tired, bored or frustrated or we are paying too much attention to his little brother. It's not hard to work out.

Totally girl, its not rocket science but as Mrsjay says there are always so called experts out there publishing books to make money.

It's sad I think that people are so eager to follow daft crap regarding their children.

Again it's not complicated it should be FUN.

I expect all these kids whose parents are endlessly negotiating and explaining just hear blah blah blah!!

My final words to my 4 were often 'because I say so.because I and dad are in charge and not you. When you leave home you can do what you like but until then live with it'

All adjusted adults and teens now. 2 left home and function very well in the world.

I agree that perhaps some children are more suited to it than others. But I wish that people wouldn't insist on saying that UP is all about reasoning and explaining feelings etc because obviously, that's not going to work on your average one or two year old. But it might be a case of saying, look, you can't bite people because it hurts but then redirecting them onto something else like a teething ring or even food. I'm always unwilling to say that we did use food when DS was little because you get the outraged responses saying "But that's a reward - he bites you and you give him apple? FFS, he'll be biting people all over as soon as he's hungry at this rate!"

But actually, it did work - even very young children are able to understand context. DS knew he could get food by asking for food and that sometimes there wasn't any left or he couldn't have more yoghurt or whatever and he never bit for this reason, in fact he never tried to bite anybody ever once he'd grown out of his biting phase (being redirected every time) until he started to get targeted by another child who would bite him, and even then, he would only bring it out when he was absolutely desperate. And no I didn't offer him a slice of apple on those occasions since it was obvious he was biting in order to deliberately cause pain. I just prevented him from doing it, with separation if necessary, and reminded him that we don't bite and he can use his words to tell us if he's angry or upset about something.

I've never read the UP book. I just took the parts of it which I have found on various discussion forums etc which work and resonate for me, because I find it preferable to using carrot and stick methods. Others clearly find that that works better for them. I don't really see why it's such a big argument all the time.

No my dd5 has ASD and developmental delays and needs shrt consice responses, she will not understand look convoluted explanations. If she has done a nice drawing, I say good drawing tat is great dd, not good drawing, I love the colours you have used, I can almost picture myself being there type of stuff.

Personally I don't think a chid can have too much praise when raise is due but alternatively they must be disciplined if they have don wrong, that is what happens in society

BertieBotts and Schooldidi I applaud your patience.

DCs are now 8 and 12, both are calm and well behaved and nice to be around. Neither were biters or hitters as toddlers and neither really pushed boundaries. I used positive reinforcers and consistent boundaries over what I call non-negotiables but everything beyond health and safety was negotiable.

As they got older I started to take time out to explain and to allow for natural consequences, "if you are nice, you will have friends, if you work hard you will be rewarded with results, if you are lazy you will fall behind etc, Now I have two children who work hard at school, above and beyond the curriculum, do not play with electronic devices, go to bed on time, never shout, seldom say no who are self motivated who both have a very finely tuned sense of justice and fairness. On the other hand I have friends who shout and sanction constantly, all day some days with children who have no respect for anyone. Only last week one friend asked me to help with her son who she can no longer cope with, sanctions, threats, shouting, inconsistency of boundaries and chaotic routines has left him challenging the school, her and even the police. He's 11 yrs old. His father put the fear of god in that child but he is still out of control because he has never learned to regulate his own behaviour, its been managed for him.

The idea of having to "manage" behaviour constantly doesn't appeal to me. I want children who can regulate their emotional responses, children who understand the natural law of consequences so that they can negotiate dangers and risks later on & make informed choices.

I don't follow every little tiny thing in the UP book (which I have read,m and found very interesting), but I let the principles vaguely guide my approach to bringing up my children. I don't tend to comment on these threads as I'm quite aware that what works for my family doesn't necessarily work for others, and I'm not as patient (or is that brave?) as BertieBotts to counter all these assertions that UP is so utterly awful.

But really, LeQueen, it's pretty unpleasant of you to say that anyone who puts UP ideas into their parenting "don't ever seem to have much else going on in their lives (and didn't have even before they became parents)" - how on earth do you justify that opinion? I have loads going on in my life, as do those people I know who also use UP to a greater or lesser extent, and I find that really insulting. I don't find it takes up a huge amount of my time, I somehow manage to squeeze in a wide social circle, a full-time job, several hobbies and a lot of TV as well.

I agree that it is boring to hear people talking incessantly about parenting - but that goes for ANY parenting, be that UP or their adoration of Gina Ford.

Very hard work until they are about 6/7 ish after that if its done right its not

Absolutely, although I found at around age 4 things fell into place because they could express themselves with language and understood their own emotions better, the hard work in the early years pays dividends.

Thebody, because parenting is not effortless its something that does require effort and attention.

5 of my children have disabilities so that's hard work anyway.
This works for all of us
You would never need to manhandle any of my children as they know they do not hurt other people. They are very well behaved and come into contact with many people who agree.

I don't spend ages reading parenting books not many of them existed when I started parenting. Its just a method that works for us worked for my mother and grandmother

We have fun,I have a surprisingly full active life as do my children and a great deal of people who enjoy my children's company.

You can't really try to explain anything one second its cant be arsed parenting next its parenting over drive.

LaQueen, totally agree with your post.

Mini again totally agree, patenting has to be firm, fair and consistent.

You also have to have, dare I say fun!!

Sock I did discount disabilities and special needs children.

You guys know what works for your child's needs. Of course.