to not know what unconditional parenting is?!

[GirlOutNumbered]

Just read it on a thread. I have no idea what this is?

Just curious how do you se UP on a child who has sn. There are arents on here that use UP, who say tat they explain to ther child. Te language used sounds very long and convoluted. How do you do that for a child whos understanding is limited and who may be developmentally delayed?

But what about things that don't have natural consequences in the short term? If a child hurts someone that doesn't have a consequence for them unless you create one to demonstrate that the behaviour is not acceptable.

And I really don't think most 2 yr olds care much that another child is hurt/ upset as most are pretty egocentric. I do think they mind having to sit away from everyone else and having Mummy be cross with them.

I'm never sure that taking a bit long isn't very counter productive.

If by misbehaving you are award with 5 minutes of Mummy's attention, why wouldn't you miss behave.

Mummy dares to ignore you drinking coffee and chatting, you bounce in the sofa, Mummy comes over. You are the centre of the universe again.

Result!

The difference between a consequence and a punishment is that a punishment is something you have chosen to do because you know the child won't like it, eg take a favourite toy away, put in time out, etc. A consequence has a definite link to the behaviour that is undesirable, eg, not being careful with your toys means that one of your toys is broken and you don't have it any more, drawing all over the sofa means somebody has to clean it and it's only fair that it's you seeing as you did the drawing, etc.

So the difference is a link to the behaviour.

Surely the consequence of hurting someone is that they no longer want to play with you, which you were enjoying.

I don't think children like a consequence either we do action and reaction if you do this that will happen whether it is consequence punishment or whatever a child is either going to ignore you and do it again or listen and think about what they did it is all the same, NO little x you can't jump ont he sofa because XYZ ime they are still going to be pissed off that they can't jump on the sofa cos it is fun, whether it is explained in great detail or not,

Hmmm. I can see how this would work with older children. DD is 5 and I make her clean up any mess she makes, wouldn't replace a broken toy if she'd been careless etc. I do think at her age I can begin to use consequences to show her how the world works.

But with a toddler I still can't see it working at all. But thank you for the explanation. I think it's an interesting discussion.

I did say dc2 is high functioning so he is NOT developmentally delayed and has good understanding language wise.
What he doesn't have is the ability to make sense of other people's feelings, to understand body language and facial expression so all that has to be explained to him (eg his siblings is angry and hurt, dc2 will not understand that 1- dc1 is feeling like and and 2- why dc1 has these feelings. All that has to be explained).
I can NOT be using convulated language as dc2 would not understand. I have to use very simple language (but clear and precise!) to show and explain things that most people would think are obvious (like the fact dc1 is upset or angry or sad etc...).

And most importantly, it meant I was always thinking that he needed help rather than being punished.

And it also means dc2 is very likely to lash out. In the mist of anger, there is no way that any explanation or punishment will sink in. The only thing that exists is the anger. Very clear with dc2 but also the case with dc1. Punishment brews resentment as the understanding of the 'why?' just isn't there.

There is a lovely chapter in raising happy children about DCs lapping up all parental attention, even negative attention.

An UP long explanation isn't even very negative.

My DDad talked a lot, I was very good at not listening.

I know a child who is UP (no SN) and he is still having major tantrums at his mother at 8. She may be doing it wrong but that child rules her life and not in a good way.

Only if you were actually playing with the child. Not if you were playing alongside them and taking whatever they were playing with. Then them getting upset and going to have a cuddle because they are hurt is a bit of a result.

X post. That was to school

mrsay, jumping on the sofa meant, in my house,
1- an explanation and
2- the child being ' seated saying 'you just seat on the sofa'

Seriously, you can parent a child and set limits wo punishment. But it takes more effort from the parent to find ways to get through the child and ensure he behaves correctly.

Long conversation and explanation are just useless tbh.
If you explain that needs to be short and concise.

manic my two (NT and SN) don't have tantrums and haven't had any for a very long time (They are 7 and 9yo).

When UP isn't used as an excuse for not parenting your child, it is very efficient.

Mrsjay I know that kids get pissed off and annoyed about consequences as well as punishments but at least they make some sort of sense. It doesn't make sense in my head that 'if you keep bouncing on the sofa I will take your toy dinosaur off you', they aren't linked at all. Whereas 'if you keep bouncing on the sofa then you will fall off and hurt yourself' definitely makes sense and is linked.

Or an example from my 13 yo, her friend got the message that 'if you don't come home on time you will be grounded', my dd1 was told 'if you don't come home on time then I won't be able to trust you to stay safe and I won't let you out with that friend again'. The result is the same, the actual consequence is the same, but the reason is different and the language is different.

intravenouscoffee, interestingly enough, I found that time out and me being cross that dc1 actually produced the opposite result (ie more of the bad behaviour).

Simply because the reason dc1 was 'badly behaved' was because he wasn't happy (different reasons for it, incl the birth of dc2). So time out and angry mum meant a child even more distressed and unhappy so one that was having more tantrums etc...

but i did explain to my dds why they couldn't jump on the sofa just sometimes I would give them a look as I didnt see the point of explaining every little thing to them sometimes It was just because i said so

No that's not the difference, though it is subtle. Consequence is broader, it covers punishment (a punishment is a kind of consequence) but not all consequences are punishments.

A punishment is something which is intended to link a bad feeling/outcome with the behaviour, it's negative reinforcement. You hear it a lot saying something like "Well I put him in his room but he didn't care, he just played with his toys!" or "I took the DS off him but he didn't mind because he played with other things instead" - this is implying a punishment kind of mindset, ie, it should "hurt" a little, the child should mind. Whereas with UP type of consequences you always do it for a different reason, not so that they learn to associate the "bad" behaviour with something unpleasant for them but so that it prevents the situation happening or helps to rectify it or teaches them something about how to manage that feeling/situation or why it's not a good thing to do. So while you might put them in their room or remove their DS it would be for a reason, e.g. the DS was distracting them when they were meant to be getting ready (and you'd then let them have it when they're not getting ready) or they need some time to calm down and it's just winding them up being around others.

I honestly don't think it's that different from "normal" parenting at all. I think most people lean towards teaching/guiding anyway these days rather than harsh punishment with no explanation, that would be considered draconian. So UP just takes the same route as "traditional" parenting but instead of tacking a punishment onto things just to make sure, the idea is that you look and think, is this really teaching them anything, and could I teach them anything else in a different way. Is the part which looks like a punishment constructive in other ways, and is it really necessary? Is there a way I can teach this lesson without it being about power?

Trying to think of an example which most people would perhaps disagree with... OK so if a child is hurting another while playing, of course you remove them right away, but perhaps you decide they can't play with that child at the moment alone, so you join in, or go to play with them yourself somewhere else (or even just with another toy in the same room). Many would disagree as it's giving the child attention (and neutral/positive attention at that) even though they've misbehaved, but the UP perspective would be that actually you're teaching them to move away from someone who is annoying them and be with someone else, and/or modelling good co-operative playing skills by playing yourself, and you're more closely watching/involved so can manage any conflict before it gets to the stage of one child hurting another. And a time out (in UP view) is counterproductive because it just makes them feel hard-done-by, and doesn't really show them any positive ways of being with the other child.

I am being an UP parent this morning.... So far DS1 is still in his pyjamas and will not choose to put them on.

hmmmm, how long do I negotiate for?

I can see how you can get into a cycle like that (have been there myself). And I have tried different tactics at those times, in particular providing lots of one to one time and encouraging good behaviour. But bad behaviour remains unacceptable in my book and needs to be addressed. Sometimes we all feel unhappy about things, we csn't just hit people and throw stuff. So I continue to discipline in those circumstances.

I can see where consequences can be very useful and appropriate but life isn't always about consequences that exactly correlate with undesirable behaviour, especially in a school situation and children need to know that, for some things, they are going to be punished.

I can also see that if it's done properly it can have the desired effect.

Ooh, thread moving too fast.

Girl Good luck with the negotiation. Have you considered taking a break from your UN summit and having a cuppa? I can hear the coffee calling to me.

It depends how old the child is girloutnumbered.If it was dd I just say put your clothes on if she says in a minute I say well are you going to make a good choice and be on school on time or a bad choice and be late and get a red slip.I wouldnt ever shout or order her about.