To be bloody furious with 5yo dd, and be on the verge of tears over this?

[Lowla]

I'm so angry! Been feeling like this since i picked up dd from school, and i'm just getting angrier with her.

Last month, i sent her into school with a week's dinner money in her new purse. Comes out at hometime telling me i forgot to give her dinner money. The purse is gone, as is the money. No one's seen it nor handed it in. So the teacher told me the school made her up a little sandwich for free.

I've told dd she's not allowed school dinners again, and will have to take packed lunches. She's upset about this because school dinners sit separately from packed lunches, and her 'best friend' is always school dinner.

Today she had P.E. I sent her in with her kit and new shoes.

She comes out at hometime saying i forgot to pack her p.e. kit. Everything was missing. Finally managed to track down her shorts and top in the classroom but her new shoes are gone (they cost me £25!). She says she lost them before P.E and she had to do it in her school hard shoes instead.

I've now had to go and buy a cheap pair of trainers for £5 from ASDA, which don't fit properly because she's a half size, and i had to go into my food budget for them.

She just doesn't give a shit. She has ASD and she just keeps saying 'oh well. never mind. we'll just buy new ones.'

I honestly feel like punching a wall. I realise i'm being totally irrational, but it's the lying that accompanies the losing stuff which pisses me off most. Her teacher claims dd told her that i forgot to pack her gym stuff today. DD also told them last time i gave her no dinner money. In the school's eyes - it's me that's forgetting stuff, not DD.

Since she started school, she's managed to lose a tie, a pair of glasses, a pair of gym shoes, a filled pencil case, her dinner money and purse, her new trainers, her blazer. And i've only got half of the stuff back, despite it being labelled.

Argh! She's in the next room loudly drawing a picture and saying to herself, "This will sure cheer mummy up! Her favourite - a butterfly!"

Dreading her coming in to give me it, because i'm really still angry with her and i'll end up hurting her feelings.

I'm at the end of my tether with her. I can't keep buying her replacement stuff, but what other choice do i have? She NEEDS a tie, she NEEDS a blazer etc etc etc. I'm just so angry with her!

(sorry, to add- I meant to say to express the anger to your daughter in an angry anger-management issue type way. Not to express it on here. On here is good. Go for it!)

But you called her a compulsive liar!

Let me explain, for example when I was at school I remember I made a little Santa with the teacher, I was first on the register so I made mine first, when the teachr asked me if I'd made one yet I said I hadn't, not because I was lying but because I was scared if I said I had made on already I'd be in trouble because the teacher would think I was rude. Don't ask me why, I was 4 or 5 at the time I had no logic.

Another time I remember us all having to go into a different class for some reason, we were due to go out to play and the teacher asked if we had our coats, I said I didn't have a coat, I did but I didn't have it in the other class with me. I got shouted at for lying. I wasn't lying I didn't understand what was being asked of me.

I explained about my ds thinking he's seen his nanny. I also remember telling everyone my uncle was chinese, he wasn't but he looked chinese through my childs eyes.

Try to see things through your dds eyes.

Yep Lowla thats why I re-wrote it...

It was only when the ed psych told me about the bit in the ADOS when he was asked to make up a story based on a book of just pictures I realised... it was 'The frog is on a rock.... ermmmmmmm..........'
'What do you think the frog is doing?
'Errrr sitting'
'Do you think he is waiting?'
'HOW DO I KNOW??? I'M NOT A MIND READER'

Yet he had just told her a long involved story about a friend at nursery (he was 6!!) and one based on the plot of thunderbirds...

It was then I thought about it and compared to friends children - yeah it was different. Mine would pretend to make tea but if I said 'ooh I think this tea is so good the queen would want to come to tea!' He would say 'Why? Does she not have tea at home? Does she know where we live?'

That said the connections he makes - well at no point are they like anything I would ever dream of! They are truely unique, logical and have absolute clarity in thought... ASD might a brain working differently but I sometimes wonder if its not a brain working more efficently.

littlemisssarcastic
I've read op's post a couple of times and no, it doesn't sound like she has anger issues. She sounds like she is having a fucking bad day!

Op what does your DH make of this situation?

It is really difficult to remember to break things down, I found it really difficult and still get it wrong although DS at 16 is now old enough to let me know he is struggling to process what I'm saying.

The pictures are a really good idea especially until she can read reliably, then you can use simple, single sentences written out in large letters and the lines well spaced out. Well at least I find it helps with DS.

I used to get very frustrated, it is very hard but does get easier as you get used to the different way of doing things.

With regard to the lies like' I don't have school today' I would completely ignore that and carry on as if she hasn't said it.Only challenge the lying if you have to or she gets upset.

Good Luck

I do understand your frustration I really do. I ask ds what he's done at school and he just shrugs and say 'dunno', 'nothing'.

Like today I was searching for these school books but he just looked at me blankly, then he said they must be in the car! He'd slotted them between the nests of tables and I know he'd doen it when tidying his toys, but he couldn't remember.

For the I don't have school today - buy a calander mark school days weekends and holidays on it so it is visible maybe with a red sticker for a school day yellow for a weekend and green for holiday?

Take a good long look at the way you have treated your DD today.

I've told my dd off for lying. I told her i was upset because she'd lost her shoes. I asked her to play by herself for a while, while i tried to calm down (by venting on here). I said thank you, that's lovely, when she gave me the picture instead of jumping around like a loon like i normally would, because i felt very tired and fed up.

I haven't told my daughter i hated her. I haven't told her she was annoying me. I haven't smacked her about or threw her out the window.

You're making out like my dd has had a night from hell! She barely even noticed i was upset. She wanted her TV show on, i said no, not until she tells me the truth about her shoes. Instead of telling the truth, she drew a picture and letter, thinking that would get her TV show on.

We've done her homework, she's had a bubble bath, we've told stories, we've had dinner, and we did our night time song.

It's been a typical evening for her except she knows i was a bit upset.

I read loads of posts on MN, but not many that distress me. This thread is quite upsetting. It sounds as though your DD is trying to please you & do her best, but you are quick to think she's lying

Lowla that all sounds incredibly frustrating. I second those saying you really need RL support here and that your GP may be the place to find it.

I have mild ASD and so do my parents (Dad diagnosed, Mum not diagnosed). I was very much like your DD as a child, including making stuff up that was obviously not true. Now as an adult I can look at my parents and see my mum in particular doing it all the time - aged 67 she has never really developed a sense of solid external reality, which combined with her "I'm your mother/wife and I know what's right, and you don't have a clue because you're subnormal, don't you lie in front of me, you're embarrassing all of us" attitude, gives rise to some really embarrassing social situations where what she is saying is obviously ridiculous but no-one can really say anything because she's accusing me or my Dad of lying. I'm absolutely not saying that your DD is getting the behaviour from you - this is just saying I understand this from the inside and also from dealing with it in a close family member.

This may not be helpful with a 5yo, but it may be helpful when your DD is older. I lived in my own little world until my late 20s, in a mix of fairly spectacular reality and "borrowing" from others' lives. Nothing major borrowed - of the "I had jam sandwiches for lunch" (when it was actually cheese) variety. The main place where it was damaging was not really thinking straight about relating to other people - developing increasingly skewed pictures of my relationships with others because I cherry-picked what I wanted to see of my interactions. Obviously other people could also observe these interactions and see how skewed my perceptions were.

What helped me to see the "constructing an alternative reality" for what it was - mildly compulsive and pointless lying (to myself or to others) to make life more interesting - and grow beyond doing it, was having my DP of that time call it "exaggeration" rather than "lying" and have him point out that the rest of the world could tell it was untrue, but that they were completely confused as to my motives. He pointed out that he knew it was just minor embellishment, but that others saw it as confusing and worrying, because they didn't know how far the lies went. He emphasised the need to make my benign motives clear, and that the way to do that was to not exaggerate at all, ever - to step back and ask questions about/listen to others' lives, and not need to be the one who always has something to say about how the current topic of conversation relates to my own set of (mildly embellished) experiences. He also pointed out that it's much more satisfying working on being awesome and being able to talk about that when asked, than spending energy on contributing half-truths to conversation and then having to keep track of what I've said...

I think if it's called "exaggeration" or "embellishment" rather than "lying", it's easier to step back from and stop, because it's implied that exaggeration is from a position of truth. Giving your DD a strategy to work on - being clear about reporting truth because otherwise others will be confused and worried because they can see the embellishment but can't tell how far the exaggerations go - will perhaps be more successful than saying "don't lie, it's wrong". At the moment "it's wrong" has no real consequences for her, and later she will discover that a lot of the public lie and also they can't tell if she's lying so she may as well keep doing it; and even later she will discover that a lot of the public can tell she's lying but they say nothing or genuinely don't care.

She lies because she wants to.

Really? Or does she lie because to her that's the truth or because she doesn't know what else to say or because she's 5 or because she's got asd? By telling yourself that she wants to lie to you your only going to make yourself more angry. I can imagine its very frustrating but she's not doing it to piss you off. You are taking it personally and that's why you are getting angry in my opinion.

Lowla she really might not remember what happened to her shoes, or she might not be telling you because she thinks she'll be in trouble.

AIBU?

YABU!

IANBU

Yes, Sparkly, i realise 'compulsive liar' was very OTT. just my way of wording things.

The examples you gave are 'every now and then lies'. DD lies with every single thing she says. I can't ask a question without the answer containing something that's not the truth.

It's not just 2-3 times a day, it's several hundred times a day. And this is why i find it frustrating. I wish i could talk to her normally, instead of trying to figure out which part of her sentence is the truth.

And this is also why i don't have time/patience to expand every 'non-truth' into a story, as suggested in a post earlier. I don't have time to listen to over a hundred ten-minute long stories each day. And yes, i find it tedious having to listen to the same story for the seventh time in a day. Of course i do.

Anna

Great post. Eloquent.

Drownagels - no DP. Just me and dd. She's never had contact with her dad.

Lowla

Your phrase joined at the hip really struck me. Lovely but oppressive too. i know I'd find it lovely, and hard to be with mine with no one to bounce ideas off when it gets hard.

I lost my rag ridiculously one of mine yesterday. He is much older. It is almost always me whonhas the skewed perception that causes the soverrly strong emotional reaction.

Overly strong

Sorry, Xposting with a lot of people.

Thanks, Anna, that's really interesting.

Thank you very much everyone for your replies. I realise i was more angry about the lying/non truths earlier, rather than the fact she's losing things.

I'm also worried that dd's 'non truths' are becoming more and more real to her, and i feel that her teacher believing her over me earlier confirmed this.

I hope it is just a phase.

DD has a little checklist made up. Just not sure how to fix it to her bag. Her purse was attached by keyring to a zip, and still somehow got lost, so don't fancy trying that method again.

littlemisssarcastic spot on post and, sadly, I agree with every word you say.

The OP's dd sounds lovely.

Lowla - STOP calling your daughter a liar.

Jamie, we're not actually joined at the hip. But we never get time away from each other except school, or the occassional visit to her Gran's house.

We do everything together, pretty much, is what i mean.

littlemisssarcastic - you have said everything I wanted to say but so more eloquently than I did.

You keep saying that you are just venting, however being able to vent lists of things that your not happy with her about is very alarming.

She is 5, she has SN, she isn't going to change, because she can't.

The only thing that can change is your attitude to her. You may think that she is oblivious to how upset you are with her, but your resentment of her behaviour will be sensed by her and processed by her in her own way.

You need support, before you cause your dd damage.

Lowla - I have absolutely no idea if it's just a phase in your DD, but having known lots of people with HF ASD, and indeed lots of NT people who do it too, it is pretty common. It might be something worth discussing with your DD's teacher and support people, also discussing it - including the scale of the problem - with your GP, who might be able to refer you & DD to some kind of psych support. A psychologist would be familiar with the spectrum from "embellished half-truths in conversation" through to "compulsive liar", and would also have strategies for working on it. Good luck.