to ask: What's the point in school uniforms?

[allrightluv]

They serve no purpose and promote conformity. Differences in income are expressed in other ways - shoes, bags, mobiles, in fact, even more so. Kids are judged by which school they go to (state/private). Thanks to the uniform you can tell by a mile off. Kids wear brands anyway - after school, at the weekends and in the holidays, so it's not any cheaper to wear a uniform to school. Consumerism is the most pronounced in the UK of all European countries.

Other countries like Sweden have no uniforms at school and few uniforms in work life, too, and rate much higher in terms of kids' happiness etc.

I'm not saying there's a causal link, but uniforms are not helping...

As a girl who wasn't interested in clothes, I loved having a school uniform. It meant I didn't have to worry about what I was going to wear or what anyone else would think of it. I boarded for secondary so we all saw each other in casuals every weekend, but non-uniform days were still hell for me because of the bullying and general bitchiness about clothes. I also found it easier to concentrate on work when wearing uniform, because it was one less thing to worry about - in the same way that now if I dress up I find I'm spending a lot more time thinking about what I'm wearing than if I'm in ordinary clothes.

I'm against uniforms, as i suspect they actually 'fetishise' clothing - ie make it more important than it should be. Hence the mufti day problem - having a uniform sends the message that it is important what you wear and important your clothing 'fits in' - I imagine this increases 'labels culture'.

My DD's at a primary school where there is no uniform, what she wears is not that big a deal - yes she likes to look 'nice' (whatever her interpretation of that is) sometimes, though weeks go by when she wears the same outfit (jeans and Tshirt) virtually every day. Many of her clothes come from charity shops and she's never been teased. Kids might admire each others clothes occasionally but there's no 'status' attached to wearing great clothes or designer gear/trainers etc.

When she was younger we sometimes used to have difficulties when she wanted to wear something inappropriate - too strappy or flouncy - but we just dealt with it in the same way we say no to too much telly or sweets. I consider it part of her learning to be responsible for herself and part of our job to teach her what's appropriate.

I really can't see any advantage for children in wearing a uniform and i think its actually a bit creepy - especially as teachers don't wear it. It makes things very us and them and is a bit of an armed forces throwback. Interestingly the local secondary school say they can tell the children from our school as they are very confident interacting with adults and talk to them like real people - tho not everyone thinks that's a good thing, i certainly do.

Do you think it depends on what the uniform is, so to those of you who like uniforms, would any uniform be OK?

I wasn't too upset with my daughter's school when they had a simple uniform of navy skirt/trousers, white blouse, and navy jumper, but after she left they introduced cheap polyester black blazers, ties for the girls as well as the boys, I definitely wouldn't have wanted her to wear those.

On the whole I think pride in the organisation engenders the pride in the uniform and not the other way around.

I think you're right, LaVolcan, in many ways. I didn't mind the basic dress code but my DC's school's move towards an ever-increasing complexity of supposed mono-culture is just irritatingly contradictory.

LaVolcan I am pro uniform - something like navy trousers/skirt, polo shirt,school sweatshirt or possibly blazer, jumper, white shirt. I don't like girls in ties - I don't see the point of that since they won't have to wear them in real life.

I do think it is a lot to do with how you view school and children generally though as a parent. I think kids go to school to learn stuff, from 9-3pm. They are part of a large organisation and the expression of their individuality is unimportant during that time. In the evenings and weekends, mine dress however they like and can express themselves as much as they like! I know that not everyone agrees with this though.

I they have to impose this stuff on our children, I wish they would allow them to look like children and not mini office workers.

I hate uniform however I can understand that many people on here have said that they like it for ease, so a polo, jumper and choice of skirt or trousers should really be enough. I cant agree with the whole it makes them work/behave better, there is no evidence to support that afaik (no doubt someone will prove me wrong now )

Dds school imposed this ridioculously strict uniform when she was in yr8,she looked like a clone from star wars, obviously they didnt give her a mask, she once got a detention for not having her top button done up in summer and another time wearing a scarf on top in winter, I couldnt get my head around that at all.

My DC's school has now surpassed itself - for parents who cannot afford to buy a strict school uniform coat, they will be permitted to wear an alternative to school but will be required to take it off before they enter the school even in bad weather.

So the poor kids (in both senses) will be the ones sitting there drenched, then. Dickens, anyone?

"They are part of a large organisation and the expression of their individuality is unimportant during that time."

Education is about learning to express your own views about the world. Not about cloning people.

wisemanscamel - yes, I think children go to school to learn, so I'd like to see teachers concentrating on that and not nagging about top buttons not being done up or wearing scarves. I am all for them laying down rules as to what is appropriate or not like no strappy tops, bare midriffs, trousers hanging down your backside, or no jewellery in tech labs (on H & S grounds). I don't like the mini office worker look either - you will have 40 years plus at work, why not let children be children?

At my work (govt research establishment) a memo was issued once telling people not to walk around in bare feet, but jeans/t shirts were quite accepted.

I'm against uniforms, as i suspect they actually 'fetishise' clothing - ie make it more important than it should be. Hence the mufti day problem - having a uniform sends the message that it is important what you wear and important your clothing 'fits in' - I imagine this increases 'labels culture'.

Hear hear, newfashionedmum. Totally agree.

LineRunner, that is appalling.

Ties on secondary girls are ridiculous. Tie over budding breasts is nuts.

Simple uniform is a winner for me. All in the same colour with sweaters with the school badge on. It gives a child a sense of belonging and saves arguments on a morning!

What a scary sense of self-importance the uniform dictator has in your DCs' school LineRunner. As my DH has just said, outside of school you can where WTF you like. The idea then that you have to strip of your outer coat so that the HT can get a warm sense of uniformity as he/she peers out of the window through the rain is nothing short of disgraceful.

As a mum I appreciate how useful uniforms are. They are convenient to me, but I have already said they are linked culturally to me to repressive regimes and I think people do not realise is a very British thing.

But also, how can the same person justify uniforms because they prepare children to real life (uniform at work)? and because they hide differences in wealth (?) Real life very much involves people with different income. To believe that clothes worn at school during 5 hours hide this is astonishing but the argument of the 'real life' does not stand here.

LineRunner, is this a state school? It can certainly not be legal and I am sure you could challenge this in a court of law (if you can be bothered)

No point at all imo
And no evidence that they achieve anything positive either
Other countries do not fall apart without school uniform fgs
YANBU

As a teacher I am all for uniform and so are the pupils I teach. They are very proud to be associated with the school and all that it stands for as are the staff many of whom have coats, kits with the school crest on (worn at school not out of it!). Mufti days are good fun and make a change but for every day to be like that? No thanks.

BTW our 6th form do not have a uniform as such but have very strict guidelines as to what they can wear - office smart I think is the phrase used.

I do like the idea that each morning the school attending population of the rest of Europe opens the wardrobe and wails 'what on earth am I going to wear?'

Also, why are students expected to learn languages, sciences etc in a couple of years yet apparently take 11 or more years of daily effort to learn how to wear a uniform for work?

My DH wears a uniform for work (after twenty years of choosing for himself) and found that the usual rules of buttons and zips applied, no special catch up lessons required. Even on his first day he managed not to fall into the trap of wearing his uniform trousers on his head.

countykitten, your students are proud to be associated with your school so uniform is fine. My DCs enjoy no such pride as the school they attend is currently competing for 'the crappest school in Britain' award.

Students are only proud to be associated with schools worthy of that pride. For the rest I think that non-uniform would be fairer all round thus avoiding guilt by association.

Perhaps you could send me the school crest for your school and my DCs could pretend they go somewhere else.

Re: the coats.

Yes it's a state school. I can only guess that the governing body has a couple of new members who think the Head Teacher is right in their crazed pursuit of what they imagine a public school to be like.

I am leading the flag waving rebellion.

Students are surely only proud to be associated with schools that are worth being proud of? The uniform or lack of it has precisely nothing to do with whether or not they feel proud of their school. I was very proud of my school (which didn't have a uniform and hadn't had one since before I was born).

Haha, WorriedTeenMum! Like the idea of your DH unaccountably deciding to wear his trousers on his head.

neat uniform looks smart, promotes a positive attitude to work and boosts morale. the children i teach (inner city, 11-16) look very tidy and businesslike in uniform.
when the uniform is correct, you see the person, not the clothes.

I'm not keen on them. However, I am in the minority it seems.

Was just making the point - another angle if you like?