to think Mary Berry is at best naive, and at worst deluded, about feminism?

[MardyBraWouldDoEddieRedmayne]

Times link if you can get through the paywall
free Daily Mail link

Apparently feminists are shouty. We should enjoy being "looked after" and gently persuade our menfolk with our feminine wiles to do what we want. It's alright if you're surrounded by well-meaning malleable blokes.

No mention of equal pay, equal voting rights, equal employment opportunities, freedom from sexual discrimination or harrassment, etc. No - all you need to do, is "persuade them [men] gently to do things and, of course, when they come back they say, ?Oh, wasn?t that fun?? Try telling that to victims of domestic violence Mary...

YANBU not read the whole thread but saw an interview with her the other day and was

YY agree about Yasmin Alibhai Brown, claig!

If Mary Berry sees that she'll probably think "why would I waste time reading serious texts when I could be making/eating cakes?" - and rightly so

Having just spent a lovely evening with some older ladies, I find it even more surprising that she expressed those sentiments. The consensus of the women I spoke with was that women have it harder in many ways in current times. As one put it "there wasn't the time to worry about how you measured up to other women. We just got on with it. I worked during the war and raised three children. I didn't think twice about asking a neighbour or relative to mind the weans, that's what we all did for each other. I didn't have to be the best mother, just the best mother for my child. There was none of this faff about working or staying at home, we just got on and did both. These poor wimmin of today are judged left right centre and what does it achieve ?"

Made me think.

Alibhai-Brown's article is a very nasty article and is also personal. Mary Berry is not being personal. She just gives her views. They aren't "poisonous" and don't have a "biiter centre", they just differ from Alibhai-Brown's views.

I don't agree with Mary Berry, but I believe in freedom of thought and expression and I don't like to see "liberal","authoritative voices" personally attacking people for expressing their views. That goes against liberty and is illiberal.

It is not only 70 year old women who think like Mary Berry, and everyone is entitled to their view.

'We just got on with it.'

That is exactly what Mary Berry is saying in my opinion. She had no extra rights, no special treatment, she had to go back to work after 5 weeks. That is what she believes in. She is entitled to her opinion without being called "poisonous" and without whipping up a "liberal" backlash for expressing her opinions.

I am hoping that she was misquoted or misled (sp?).

I love Mary. I met her through my job years ago when she judged a cookery competition.

YANBU - just read the DM article what a load of rubbish. She sounds like one of those women who have had all the advantages of feminism without realising that is down to feminists and feminism that she has those equal rights etc.

Claig, please stop quoting my posts out of context. The woman I quoted believes that women today need feminism more than ever and believed that MB expressed those views because in some ways, she had it easier, in her opinion. And overall the consensus was that it was a selfish view. The 'I did alright so feminism has no relevance to me as a woman' view.

Yes, that is probably Mary Berry's view, because that is how she did it. She "just got on with it" like the women who went through the war said. She doesn't feel that she achieved her success through feminism. Thatcher would probably say the same type of thing. That is what she thinks. It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, because disagreements and different opinions will always exist. What is far worse is an attempt to force people to heed 'authoritative voices'.

Blistory - the individual company stories sound great but that is not the reality. The situation you describe works because those employees can switch off after 5, their work is not terribly demanding, much like mine now. However if you climb the ranks it's a different story. A CEO who leaves at 5 to spend time with their family is certainly a better person but probably not a better CEO

Blistory the point you made regarding how older women view our generation is excellent. There is no doubt we tend to over think and beat ourselves up endlessly

'These poor wimmin of today are judged left right centre and what does it achieve ?"

This is teh key difference with then and now. Mary Berry is not a modern "role model" that can be used by 'authoritative voices', she is a human being. She dares to disagree with the 'authoritative voices' and they don't like it and thow vitriol at her.

She should not be judged as being "poisonous" because she thinks differently to those "voices".

She just "got on with it", she didn't try to be a "role model", she didn't try to be a "high flier" or a beast in the boardroom; she just got on with it and she did it. She didn't have the pressure of the media and the extra high expectations judging her all the way while she built her career. She doesn't think she is wealk or incapacitated because a man holds a door open for her; she actually likes it.

She "got on with it", and the "authoritative voices" should let her get on with it, back off attacking her personally and let her express her views.

Min, sorry but I find that offensive. I have never disclosed what I do in RL but suffice to say my profession is one that involves my staff being put in some very harrowing and threatening situations. It is very much a profession guilty of presenteeism but given what they do, that leads to burn out.

As for your comments on not being a good CEO, I balance my actual work, my company management and home life extremely well. The difference is that I make sure my employees get those benefits too. Profitability is up, productivity is up, client satisfaction is up and I have a strategy in place to deal with one poorly performing employee.

You are making the tired old assumption that quantity of time at work is a better guage of success than the quality of time at work.

Sorry Min that sounded really defensive on my part. But it is my reality and that of my colleagues and if my profession can do it, so can others.

Xenia works very long hours and weekends. MPs work long hours. I am sure that Tony Blair had to work long hours. Highly paid traders work long hours and self-employed business people often work very long hours.

I think that people in the private sector at top levels do work long hours and I personally wouldn't invest in any company where the boss left the office at 5 pm. I am sure that Mary Berry also worked long hours.

If you want to be a champion sports star you have to put the hours and graft in, in order to stay ahead of your competition. You have to make sacrifices.

It may be different in a council job, I don't know.

The old adage "it's tough at the top" has some truth to it.

They work long hours because traditionally it's expected. That's very different from being necessary.

And there may well be some industries where flexitime or home working aren't possible. I just can't think of one.

Quite why you seem to be dismissive of council workers is beyond me.

Blistory, your company sounds great.

Min, to respond to your anecdote a few pages back, DH would have loved to have shared maternity leave with me and I with him. I am pleased this is increasingly going to happen - first something is made legal, then more people give it a try and slowly it becomes just another option.

Council workers are public sector workers and do not face the competition that exists in the private sector. I am not dismissive of them, but I don't think they face the competitive pressures that Mary Berry faced when running a private business without state aid and taxpayer funding.

People in private businesses don't work long hours because it is expected; they do so in order to remain competitive in regard to their colleagues and competing businesses.

I am sure that the founders of Microsoft and Apple worked very long hours in order to get where they are today.

VERY well said, blistory. Long hours are a form of macho showing off - look at me, look at how hard I work, very few other people would make these sacrifices and command my pay packet! In many industries and many jobs it has very little to do with actual impact. And even in, say, corporate law or medicine, it's the juniors climbing the greasy pole who are made to work ridiculous hours. Once you get to very senior levels you often don't have to pull such ridiculous stunts. (Although with restrictions on junior doctor's hours and people finally waking up to the fact that patients are ill round the clock, not just 9-5 Mon-Fri, things are beginning to shift in medicine.)

I can't really take credit for it. A lot of posters, particularly in FWR have really opened my eyes as has reading the same old threads by women really struggling to get by and nothing seems to change. That's possibly why MB's comments rankled. As a woman, if I can influence or have a positive aspect on other womens lives and am fortunate enough to have the means to do so, don't I have a responsibility to do just that ?

The founder of Apple is dead - at least one of them, Steve Jobs. 'Where he is today' is six feet under, sadly for his friends and family.

Claig, where am I not being clear ? I am self employed, I am highly paid, I work in a traditional profession, your refusal to invest in company's like mine is your loss. Had you done so, your dividends may have opened your eyes to the benefits of not blindly following tradition.

' Long hours are a form of macho showing off - look at me, look at how hard I work, very few other people would make these sacrifices and command my pay packet!'

Edam, I think that is wrong. Most prople don't like doing extra work. Even the traders in the banks would prefer to pick up their bonuses and go to the pub. They have no choice if they want to pick up their pay cheques. They are at the train station at 6 a.m. and don't get back till late. If they are not prepared to do it, then there are lots of eager competitors who will do it instead.

'I work in a traditional profession'

I think things may change in your profession too, and I doubt it will be towards shorter working hours. There was a time when teh city bankers had 3 hour liquid lunches, then Thatcher brought in deregulation and in came the American and foreign banks and they were eating sandwiches at their desks.

Times change, competition increases, life gets tougher.

I agree completely about self employed people working long hours not because they want to or because its expected but because they have to.

Blistery I appreciate that your company works the way it does with flexible working hours but that is your company and it is what works for you.

My husband and I dont own a company, just a small business with a handful of employees. Flexible working would not work for the business as I have said.

What works for your company may not work for every business and company and you cannot possibly say flexible hours would work for every business unless you know the ins and outs of it.

There are thousands of jobs, mainly manual and practical work rather than office based, where it just would not work.