to think Mary Berry is at best naive, and at worst deluded, about feminism?

[MardyBraWouldDoEddieRedmayne]

Times link if you can get through the paywall
free Daily Mail link

Apparently feminists are shouty. We should enjoy being "looked after" and gently persuade our menfolk with our feminine wiles to do what we want. It's alright if you're surrounded by well-meaning malleable blokes.

No mention of equal pay, equal voting rights, equal employment opportunities, freedom from sexual discrimination or harrassment, etc. No - all you need to do, is "persuade them [men] gently to do things and, of course, when they come back they say, ?Oh, wasn?t that fun?? Try telling that to victims of domestic violence Mary...

I've just been bumping all the MN feminists' comments on the article

Good one, Latara

Latara Good going

I can't think of any job that can't offer flexitime off the top of my head.

And we are a small company.

Honestly, I could give you all the arguments against flexitime, home working, maternity leave etc etc. I used to use them myself. I resisted it all for years. And then realised that if we don't change, there is absolutely no point in educating women if all we expect is that they'll attend school, maybe higher education, start on the career ladder and then have to become a SAHP even if they don't want to. Men don't have that restriction and if we don't change it now, we never will. I bought into the whole 'women can't have it all' Yes, they can, as men have shown time and time again, so why don't they ? And really it comes down to working patterns and society's expectations as to child care and different roles for the sexes, so why not change them ?

It was only when I really looked into it that I realised that these arguments about it not being possible were simply traditional perceptions about our work culture in the UK. I promise you, I am not seeing things through rose tinted glasses or holding my company up as a shining example. I do see many of our clients and competitors changing and yes, it might be small steps but it is happening.

Latara - i'm not sure i like the stereotyping. What i mean is to me you are saying:

Cutey, girly and nice = typical female way

normal feminist self = typical male way

Where as to me it is:

Polite, nice and kind = male and female way sometimes

More assertive and outspoken = male and female way sometimes also.

I don't like this labelling that suggests a nice polite cute attitude must be a girl thing therefore wrong whereas a strong assertive attitude must be either male or feminist.

If i have to get someone to move something i always start off with the polite, kind way first (because that is just good mannors) then if they are being a stick in the mud i will get more assertive and strong. I don't link that to being a female i just link that with being a human being trying to be polite first instead of going in all guns blazing.

I think she's referring to what Mary Berry thinks feminist/nonfeminist ways of doing things are, moon!

solidsnake well, then it really should be called "Equalism" shouldn't it?

Feminism is often portrayed by showing women at their least feminine, behaving like men would do - so is a feminist someone who wants to be equal to a man by appearing to be one?

It's very confusing for me and I have great difficulty with the whole issue

Blistory - my business cannot offer flexible time. For a start, part of it is a dying trade and it is very difficult to find someone who can actually do the job in first place and the hours, let alone someone to cover them to do flexi time. The other part of it most do part time anyway and they are very happy to do their Mon-Fri with some doing 5 hours a day others 7. It works and i can't see having double the amount of staff to come in and do a few hours each helpful at all. Flexi working just wouldn't work at all.

amazingmum Well I think what described sounded pretty much like feminism to me!

Also, personally, I don't like 'Equalism' much because to me it sounds like a term for feminists who don't want to call themselves feminists, but if any equalists would like to explain more about the movement or correct me, i'm happy to listen.

I have no idea, I haven't read the article. However I always thought she looks like a cross between Sue Barker and a scrotum. Just thought I'd share it.

amazingmum, I think the same/equal thing is a bit of a false issue, anyway. I'm equal to my sister, but we're far from the same, because we're different people. A 40-year-old black man and a 40-year-old white man are equal, but not the same; not because of the colour of their skin but because they're individual human beings. I might have far more in common with a man around my age with a similar background than I have with say... Mary Berry.

I agree that equal does not mean the same, but the idea that I'm similar to another woman just because we both have female genitals just doesn't sit well with me. I don't think seeing women as an homogeneous mass doesn't really help anyone.

*I don't think seeing women as an homogeneous mass helps anyone. Sorry, got distracted mid-sentence!

?I would always stand up for women but I don?t want women?s rights and all that sort of thing.

?I love to have men around and I suppose if you?re a true feminist you get on and do it yourself. I love it when someone says, ?I?ll get your coat? or, ?I?ll look after you?, or offers you a seat on the bus. I?m thrilled to bits. I?m not a feminist.?

Can anyone actually read accurately any more?

MB obviously associates feminism with the type of radical feminism of the 60-70s which were often separatist - I don't think she's referring to what we would understand by feminism nowadays.

Cut the woman some slack. She's a cook not a political commentator.

Precisely, ES. So she needs to shut up yapping to the media about something she is clearly uneducated about.

I subscribe to the Times so in case anyone still cares, here's the relevant bit of the interview:

Would she consider herself a feminist? She pulls a face. ?I don?t think so,? she says. ?I would always stand up for women but don?t want women?s rights and all that sort of thing. I love to have men around and I suppose if you?re a true feminist you get on and do it yourself. I love it when someone says, ?I?ll get your coat?, or, ?I?ll look after you?, or offers you a seat on the bus. I?m thrilled to bits. I?m not a feminist, no.?

Does she think feminism has become a dirty word? ?I think feminism is a dirty word,? she nods. ?You?ve got to persuade them [men] gently to do things and, of course, when they come back they say, ?Oh, wasn?t that fun???

Part of her exasperation is possibly based on the fact that she is an employer: ?I had about five weeks off [for maternity leave] and now I think, gosh, they haven?t half cottoned on to it! You have a year off, and you don?t have to tell them whether you?re coming back or not,? she says, stunned. ?It makes it terribly difficult for the small employer to employ young women, young married women or [women] with children. You?ve got three in the department and they all go to have children and you?ve got to leave the job open.?

Personally I'm not massively bothered by what she's said, mainly because of her age and because she isn't a role model for women in their teens and twenties.

I wish I didn't read the comments under the Telegraph article. [shocked] and fucking disappointed.

I think if i were in a job interview and it was a choice between me and a bloke, i would want to get that job based on my work and skills. I wouldn't want that job to either A) Fill someones quota of how many women they must be seen to employ or B) Because i have had to be like a man.

If i didn't get that job through my skills and knowledge all whilst being myself (like a female, not a male traited female) then i don't think i want that job after all.

Space Don't you know the first rule of the internet? Never read the comments!

No, I didn't know, Snake! I always read them and the suffer form heightened heart rate. I'll know next time.

I can't get very worked up about her comments either - she bakes - she doesn't sound like she's given much thought to feminism.

She is 77 and bakes cake.

I don't agree with her, but I won't be throwing her cook books away.

I think her remarks aren't very well thought out and I don't agree with them, but I don't really expect her to be the Germaine Greer of sponges.

I admit I havent read the entire thread but has the beloved MB said what she did for childcare when she went back at 5 weeks ?

Lots of women want to go back very quickly - 5 weeks is fine. It should not be that women are all made to take the same amount of time off work.

She just doesn't like the feminism word, but her life and her example is pretty good. Most successful women like their work and many combine it well with children. You do not have to take a year's maternity leave to be a good mother or father for that matter.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, not all women will agree about feminism etc. She is a very successful entrepreneur and what she says is probably what Thatcher would also have said.

' She likes the idea of chivalry, she likes being treated like a lady. Quite frankly, I expect everyone to be courteous to everyone but a lot of what she finds flattering is actually insulting. It suggests incapacity or weakness.'

She doesn't think it is insulting or reflects incapacity; she thinks differently.

I think Alibhai Brown's article is poisonous, not the thoughts of Mary Berry.

'But now, suddenly, we discover that the fragrant lady of the cakes has a bitter centre, some pretty poisonous views, all seemingly arrived at without the burdensome reading of serious texts or heeding of authoritative voices'

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/mary-berry-goes-all-contrary-with-a-simple-recipe-take-one-part-ignorance-add-poison-and-stir-well-8468831.html

What 'authoritative voices' is Alibhai-Brown referring to? - her own?

It is a free country and people differ in their views. Allow differing views to be expressed and don't allow the 'my way or the highway' thought control of 'authoritative voices'.

Shame she has to slag off feminism when I'm sure she wouldn't be impressed if someone tried to take away her right to run her company, or vote, or be paid the same as a man... Good grief, she's from the generation that fought for equal pay, her memory is clearly very short indeed. Or maybe she thought she should be paid less, who knows...