to think Mary Berry is at best naive, and at worst deluded, about feminism?

[MardyBraWouldDoEddieRedmayne]

Times link if you can get through the paywall
free Daily Mail link

Apparently feminists are shouty. We should enjoy being "looked after" and gently persuade our menfolk with our feminine wiles to do what we want. It's alright if you're surrounded by well-meaning malleable blokes.

No mention of equal pay, equal voting rights, equal employment opportunities, freedom from sexual discrimination or harrassment, etc. No - all you need to do, is "persuade them [men] gently to do things and, of course, when they come back they say, ?Oh, wasn?t that fun?? Try telling that to victims of domestic violence Mary...

[Xenia]

Yes, some people do choose to stay home out of choice. Many men hate their work, nasty boss, long hours, loads of travelling and if told you can stay home and be your own boss in effect at home and your wife will work would jump at the chance. Men are rarely given that choice in the same way women are.

Most people are not happy to work particularly hard or do not like their work enough to do it to the extent you need to succeed at most things and this applies to some men too. However we still have most women earning less than their husbands as women tend to marry older men who are a bit better educated and earn more. That may be changing but for now if he is on £60k and she £25k because he picked a better career or is a bit older you ccan be pretty sure who will stay at home. If instead she is on £100k they probably won't want to lose that standard of living when a baby comes. Women very often do not choose to marry men who are much worse than they are still. It is a key reason for women not doing better as they move into their 30s and 40s - they are the ones with the lower pay so they are the ones who sacrifice career and plenty then go on to regret that too.

I would like us to get beyond women subconsciously marrying good providers and men pretty women whose career doesn't matter.

[MoonLighter]

I see what you are saying Xenia and i agree that men should have more choice in whether they want a stay at home role in the same way women do.

It is just such a difficult thing to comment on because there are so many shades of grey inbetween the black and white picture. The scenario you are wrote about is true for some but not for all. Women who want a career can go for their goal and achieve what they want to achieve. The draw back is when they do decide to start a family, it is tougher on women then men and it always will be because women are the ones who carry and give birth to the baby. That and maternity leave puts a big stigma on a womans career.

Whatever happens in later years when the child get bigger can be worked out to what works best for the family but to start with during that first period of pregnacy and birth, women don't have the choice because men can't do it for them. The point i am trying to make is when a man announces in the workplace that he and his wife/partner are having a baby the only thing that will effect that mans job during that time is a couple of weeks paternity leave (although now with the maternity share it could be longer.) Whereas when a woman goes in and announces she is pregnant it effects so much more. There is potential morning sickness/time off, appointments/time off, risk assessment with potential moving her job around if her condition is too unsafe/risky to do her currant role then there is maternity leave plus all the little things that could happen/change/go wrong inbetween. Maternity leave in itself puts women to a disadvantage because it's ok to give more and more rights but it ends up being counterproductive because it makes employers not want to employ women of a certain age, especially as a woman can leave the employer in limbo by not telling them if they intend to come back or not.

I know you said you went to work 2 weeks after birth and i completely respect your choice on that. But not many women do want to go back to work that soon and alot enjoy the time spent with their babies and after birth, alot of women's mindset changes so the career they were very happy with before doesn't look so appealing anymore.

I also don't think most women have the same mindset as men because that is just the way we are made. I am all for women working, i think women in careers is a very positive thing so don't get me wrong in that. There does seem to be a stigma attached to women who choose to stay at home with their children these days almost like they are letting the side down if they do.

Family life has broken down and the results aren't making people happier they are making family life harder and more miserable. I don't understand why?

[MerlotAndMe]

Men could choose to stay at home if they chose a different kind of wife.

I think men subconsciously want to earn more, they want the power and the control and the final say. They also just prioritise a woman's looks way above what she earns. That's the status quo that most men are the most comfortable with... also, even modern, liberal men are statistically likely to be paid more than the woman doing the same job 3 desks away.