Yesterday was Holocaust Memorial Day. I'm afraid we're heading that way again.

[garlicblocks]

"It is estimated that close to 250,000 disabled people were murdered under the Nazi regime. Persecution of people with disabilities began in 1933, but mass murder commenced in 1939.

"The organised killing of disabled children began in August 1939 ... All children under the age of three who were suffering from conditions such as Down?s syndrome, hydrocephaly, cerebral palsy or ?suspected idiocy?, were targeted. A panel of medical experts were required to give their approval for the ?euthanasia? of each child. In the first few months of the program this was usually achieved either by lethal injection or by starving the child to death. Many parents were unaware of the fate of their children, instead being told that they were being sent for improved care.

"The first experimental gassings took place at the killing centre in Brandenberg and thousands of disabled patients were killed in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms. Now that a fast and effective method of mass-murder had been developed it could of course be used to exterminate gays, Gypsies, political opponents and of course over six million Jews.

"Worryingly, in 2012 in Great Britain, Geoffrey Clark, a local government candidate for the UK Independence Party in a by-election in Gravesham, Kent posted this on his website:

"Consider compulsory abortion when the foetus is detected as having Downs, Spina Bifida or similar syndrome which, if it is born, will render the child a burden on the state as well as on the family."

"Although UKIP suspended Clark?s party membership when this hit the news, it was too late to cancel his candidacy. He came second to the conservatives with almost 27% of the vote."

What can we do about escalating persecution of the disabled and otherwise 'unproductive' people in the UK? Are we heading back towards forced sterilisation and murder?

And yes I do fear that the UK Government will try and employ these tactics

Hitler/Cameron/Clegg ........there are all politicians and ont care about real people

Blimey, I think that's crass understatement of the year 'the nazis were not very nice'.

And, yes, hitler was just another politician. Just like Cameron and clegg.

And how dare those pesky Jews keep banging on about being victims, don't they know that other people were killed in the second world war?

People on this thread seem to think that Germans in nazi Germany had full democratic rights and just were a bit mean to Jews and disabled people.

The ignorance on this thread is just astounding.

The nazis made no secret of their eugenic philosophy and the fact that disabled (and Jews and gypsies) were seen as polluting the 'master race'. That was the main driving force behind their murderous actions. I'm not sure I've seen anything like that in the conservative manifesto.

I can understand people feeling victimised, demonised, discriminated against. The analogy with the holocaust is just wrong, it's insulting to those of us who did lose family in the holocaust and it's unnecessary hyperbole IMO.

You could talk about the importance of caring for those who are weaker and more vulnerable in the moral, liberal and democratic society we aspire to be but you can't bring in the holocaust without sounding ridiculous and completely ignorant about what happened.

o really

so when is rhwanda day?

what about every genocide that has happened post world war two?

do they all get days named after them too?

post ww2 .......germany was disarmed and a new country called Israel was born.

Now is Isreal not one of the biggest problems on this planet?

Goodness, you really don't like Jews much, do you dexys?

Maybe the holocaust is all a myth in aid of the Zionist cause?

For all my rants on this thread I have to say that the analogy is not good. I think we remember the Holocaust because perhaps or the first time people all over the world were able to have knowledge via newspapers etc.....the photos I have seen in my time (from various retired WW2 veterans) are absolutely shocking. It's OT surprising that a day was set aside to remember those who died.
Since that time there have been other incidences of genocide but as the world has got more media infused so we have lost the sense of shock that perhaps those early photos gave people for the first time.

So Holocaust Memorial Day is a day when I remember the people who died in WW2 for ideological reasons, but I also remember people who have died at other times for the same reason.

I am glad my pill question showed the very attitude I had not wanted to see, it reinforces the lack of progress that has been made in accepting the "other" no matter if they are disabled, jewish, gay, or black. Unfortunately a strong resentment exists to any one who does not conform to a stereotype that is deep rooted in white anglo saxon mythology.

Garlic I understand why you would take the pill and indeed I know many people who were born with their disability would do the same, this is the flaw that is being used to push people in to self hating and loathing. From day one once your disabled you lose much if not all of your ability to control your life, you lose dignity, you lose hope and expectation as you become medicalised and a problem to be solved like a Rubik cube. The sense that we grow up with or learn to accept is that we are viewed as objects of pity and fear. We are used like the spectre of doom to threaten others, we are segregated, belittled, and denied our feelings and our humanity.

So kungfu I agree we should not diminish the holocaust or the EXPERIENCE OF jewish people. However if whilst we remember the holocaust should we not use the remembrance to make sure that no group is singled out and targeted in the same way ever again.

FFS. Some are too thick to see it. We are not saying this is the Holocaust, we are saying that these are similar to the events that led to it. Read the thread or don't bother commenting.

As for taking a pill, each to their own, but Einstein, Bill Gates, my dh? I know the answer for my dh, and I'm fairly sure Einstein and Gates wouldn't because in their cases, as well as dh and dcs, it is part of who they are.

Dawn, I would also not take the pill, and indeed Harriet is right to point that it is a pretty stupid argument as no pill will ever exist. Disability will always occur, wars, and auto accidents will see to that.
The Pill that really should be invented though is the one that allows people to see and value equally all life styles and all types of people. However as harriet has shown the numbers of people taking that pill as a result of an inability to empathise and value others, would bankrupt what is left of the NHS. I think I will stop posting now as I was angry last night and now as is the way of things my depressive cycle has started back down the way.

dawn - they don't WANT to see what we are actually saying.

Because then they'd have to look at what we are saying. They may even have to see what we see. Then they may feel they are expected to act. Although maybe not.Probably not. Probably still get told to shut up and be grateful, cos nobody has to help the vulnerable at all anyway...

By pretending that what we are saying is that we are to be rounded up and sent to the gas chambers tomorrow and that this government has a secret document that outlines its plans to kill us, they can tell us we are being stupid and disrespectful (and indeed that would be true if that's what we were saying! It would be VERY stupid and VERY disrespectful to say that what is happening now is like the extermination of millions of people.), instead of taking a good long look at what it is we are saying. Where it is we are saying that we are. What we are actually comparing what's happening to us now to.

What we are actually comparing what's happening to us now to.

But this time we won't have the excuse that we didn't know what it could lead to.

"So two questions for all those that dispute the holacaust theory. Would you be happy to see your son or daughter marry and have children with a person with a physical disability, a learning disability, a mental health problem all declared up front and not hidden?"

Yes, no and yes. I wouldn't be happy for my child to marry somebody with a learning disability. IMO this could never be an intellectually equal relationship, how could they communicate fully together? I don't see how the non disabled person could be anything other than the 'boss' in this situation. Sorry. Please explain how I'm wrong.

"2nd question: If a pill or an injection were developed that cured all disabilities of all kinds, what would you think about those people who refused to have it."

Up to them, although to be honest I would be baffled by such a decision. I don't see how it is better to- not be able to walk, than be able to walk, be blind, than be able to see, live life in pain, than be pain free, for example. I can't imagine anyone who in adulthood became blind/deaf etc deciding it was better to stay that way. Although I can see that if people a born disabled it might be a scary new world they would be entering into.

Some might find my opinion offensive, but they are honest and I don't mean to offend.

....plus moutstaches are now fashionable again.

It all makes sense. I think you might be on to something.

Leithlurker

I did, as you so delightfully phrased it, 'marry a crip.' Best thing I've ever done. Life isn't always easy but neither are we reliant on benefits. We are a very high income household. We have a wonderful family together.

I find your posts highly offensive.

oh do fuck of with this pill shit, a stupid ignorant excuse to make out that disabled people should not accept their disability.

While I don't believe that anyone is planning to roll out the gassing trucks to my son's school, I do worry about his future in a country which is presently demonising people with any sort of disability or long term illness.

The parallels between the language used in the 30's by the National Socialists and others who believed in eugenics, and the rhetoric being spouted now are worrying. Both ideologies have been promoted during times of horrendous financial difficulties, both seek to blame vulnerable sections of society for all ills, however, I would hope that only one leads to death camps, the other seems to be leading to a form of apartheid which only constant vigilance and lobbying will reverse.

kendodd interesting that you wouldn't like your child to marry someone with a learning disability. This means that you would be unhappy with them marrying Richard Branson, Michael Heseltine, Stephen Spielberg or Stephen Redgrave, all of whom have specific learning disabilities. Or did you just mean the ones with an IQ of less than 70 who claim benefits to help them survive?

My dh has a learning disability, along with an iq of 165. He was until he had a serious illness, a philosophy lecturer.
Perhaps you need to rethink your ideas regarding learning disabilities, Ken

justgivemefiveminutes

leithlurker was being sardonic and as a disabled person, was merely turning the insult on it's head and firing it back to someone else.

Ken I have spent my working life, until being unable to work due to ill health, working with Physically and emotionally disabled young people. You mention them not being able to communicate, with the correct support and aids in place everyone can communicate. I have held intelligent conversations with peopl who can just eye point or move one part of their body.

Please do not underestimate the abilities of people. It is just plain rude.

WhoeverHeardOfAWormskinRug

I realise she/she was being provacative but frankly it could've been worded far better. I reserve my right to be offended even though you are not

diaimchlo Bravo. Totally agree with your post.

Today in 1933

www.historylearningsite.co.uk/january_30th_1933.htm

Justgive: What offends you is entirely your own call. If you do not like crip, what about raspberry ripple, or spastic, or any other damned word that has been used to denigrate and diminish the lives of disabled people. I am glad your from a high earning household it is good to hear that a person with an impairment is reaching the highs of social and economic life that are denied so many disabled and otherwise.

If though your DH has an obvious disability, wheelchair for example ask him how he feels about those people who stare at him, or those people who rush to open doors, or those people who ignore him, or worse those people who talk to you not him. See it is is those people that will forever see your DH as a crip not himself, or you, or people who love and know him for hi,se;f. My DW married a crip, she knows I am a crip because she knows it's the people who do not know me that think of me in that way. So if you do not mind I will take your offence and mark it down as not being a reflection of the world that I and a lot if not most impaired people inhabit.

Please do not use the word crip Leithlurker As I have already said, it is offensive.

My DH has an 'obvious' disability and I am fully aware of people's reactions towards him, so I do not have to, as you have so patronisingly instructed me to, ask him how he feels

To be fair to Ken, s/he was saying they doubted that their child would be able to have a normal, equal marriage with somebody who was profoundly disabled with communication difficulties or who had a very low IQ (I assume was meant by learning difficulties, rather than the other sorts). Not to say one couldn't, but it would require unusual qualities in both partners. It could be tricky to maintain the equality, relationship-wise. (I'm even avoiding relationships because of this: don't want to land an abuser or a rescuer!)

I first encountered the "magic pill" test in school, where it was used to highlight racism. In those days it seemed logical to many that a black person should take a make-white pill, simply to fit in and have fewer problems. Same with a make-straight pill for homosexuals.

Now we've overcome our attitudes to colour prejudice and gay-bashing (though not the problems themselves), it seems shocking that most people assumed blacks and gays would prefer to be white and straight. This is why replacing "disabled" with "black" in a sentence makes a good test of bigotry; the assumption comes from the white, straight, fully-abled speaker's sense of innate superiority.

Whoever pointed out that disability prejudice attacks the sufferer's OWN sense of worth was on the money. I described myself as "less" since my illness - and it's certainly how I feel; I struggle with it every day - whereas I could and should say I'm "different". Years of restricted activity, filled with reading and therapy, have lent me a great deal more wisdom and philosophical knowledge. The superfit Garlic of old - who made indecent amounts of money (and paid more into the system than I've had out, btw) - was a bit one-dimensional and seriously dysfunctional, compared to the less active, more thoughtful blob I am now. But I'm not celebrating this enough: my government, and the society I live in, reinforce my feelings of inadequacy & uselessness. They tell me I'm not worth the house I live in and have no right to a social life. My own prejudice against myself agrees. I fight this, but it's heavy going.

In my childhood, a lot of black people and gays also struggled with feelings of self-hatred, for identical reasons.

Since I don't suppose many contemporary Brits would now agree that being black or gay makes a person less worth a decent life, it is important that we ask ourselves if we're now feeling this way about disabled people. We have to stop all such prejudice or, as LaV said, we might let it reach unthinkable conclusions ... and we won't be able to say, this time, we didn't know what could happen :(