To think that grammar schools should either be scrapped altogether or available in every county?

[Perriwinkle]

How can it possibly be fair or reasonable to have them only in certain counties?

I know that many people will say "how can a system that supposedly favours the brightest ten percent of children, ever be fair?" but personally, I've actually got no beef with that provided that the opportunity to attend these schools is available to the brightest children in all counties.

How can it be equitable that the brightest children who live in counties which do not have a grammar school system are routinely failed by the comprehensive system whilst those who live in certain counties are not because they are able to attend high performing State-funded grammar schools?

I think if you're anti grammar schools altogether you should probably hide this thread. This is not meant to be a thread about the pros and cons, relative merits, inequalities or shortcomings of either the grammar school system or the comprehensive system. It is a simply a question of wishing to hear any reasonable justification that may be put forward for the continued existence of the grammar school system in its current guise.

How can it be fair to continue restricting the opportunity to enjoy a priveliged grammar school education (akin to that which many people pay handsomely for in the private sector) only to children who live in certain parts of the country?

I quite agree exoticfruits...you cannot say that just because a child isn't academic they are suddenly going to forfeit a work ethic, mixing with children from similar backgrounds etc.....

And whatever Mumsnetters think about their DCs and their intelligence levels, it's simply not the case that all children are going to be super-duper bright and/or capable of getting into grammar schools anyway.

I for one think we are very privileged to have super-selectives on our door-step. It was by accident rather than design that it's ended up like this for our family. It certainly wasn't intentional that we moved to our area (in fact DW hates it). There are also comprehensives with selective streams that offer a very appealing alternative. However, because of the levels of selective and private education provision, it does mean that the rest of the comprehensives are not necessarily up to standard and many are avoided with a barge-pole by any parents with ambitions for their children (and this includes decent, honest working-class folk too).

I don't really know what the solution is but it's not just down to the schools and their governance to make up for out-of-school shortfalls in their pupils' expectations, levels of numeracy/literacy. That is some type of larger societal issue.

Interestingly it was a discussion on Breakfast TV.
On the programme there was FACT 1 private tutors are doing very well FACT 2 the majority of the tutoring for under 11s was specifically to pass a test.
It featured Kent (not sure if the whole of Kent or just part) who want to produce a tutor proof test to get rid of money giving an unfair advantage.
I think the general conclusion thought it impossible to produce such a test, but it was great they were trying. Also highlighted that Head teachers don't want tutored DCs and state schools don't prepare so it gives private schools a huge advantage- because they do.
All in all it showed that money can buy you an advantage. The tutor on the programme agreed that if it didn't do a lot it at least gave the DC self confidence in the test and that if you had 2DCs with equal intelligence, the tutored one had the definite edge.

Er, the tutor kind of would say that, wouldn't he.....? And there's been masses on this recently: clearly there's a big push on to negate the effects of tutoring as the head of the GSHA said in the linked article upthread.

I would say that tutoring runs the risk of pressurising a child and upping the ante, so potentially bad.

Begonia - elsewhere it has been asserted that GS parents tend to be well off. If that is true then they probably pay more tax than you. If that is also true then why resent them because their DCs passed the 11+? Its not as if they come in from abroad and are benefiting from the taxes paid by other people.

eh? Are you suggesting that because they pay more tax, wealthier people deserve better schools for their children?

Not that I think grammar schools are a good idea (not remotely) but even so

Totally - How do you know they paid more tax? The school my child should have gone to by cachment (sp?) doesn't have a great rep, the one parents usually try to avoid. Maybe I'm paying more tax than GS parents or super duper comps then I should be doubly pissed off. But that's not really the point. It's the inequalities in education provided. Some get it lucky and some get shafted.

... and before people rush to flame me, I am NOT saying that well off people are entitled to a better education.

Merely that it is silly for people to resent that their taxes are being used to fund someone's DC at GS when theirs are going to a lesser school.

Really? You think that's silly to resent your child possibly going to a school that's considered poor when others don't have that problem?

Taking grammars out of the equation, because I think they're a Bad Idea, you're basically saying if you're less well off you shouldn't resent better off people receiving better public services, because they pay more tax.

That's ridiculous.

Liking this tax idea... a voucher for use at any school perhaps increasing in value the more tax you pay... mmm good plan and refund perhaps to me for education 5 children from age 5 - 18 saving the state at least £325k (£5k a year per child state school cost)? Do put the cheque in the post please.

Thr bottom line is that it is an absolute scandal, a crying shame that every child cannot receive an excellent education.
Up to about 10 years ago I used to teach basic accountancy (AAT level 2) at night school.the students were of all ages, but one striking thing was that those over 50 (ie over 60) now had a very sound understanding of basic maths.My colleagues noticed the same things.These peole would have gone to school at a time when there were no classroom assistants.Just one teacher and a big class up to 50.What did they do then that was so successful?

Begonia - I am NOT saying that you shouldn't be resentful. I'm just saying that it's ridiculous to resent the parents who aren't stuck with a poor school.

Poor schools exist for various reasons. Incompetent politicians, bad teachers, indifferent parents etc. The parent that has managed to dodge the bullet isn't even on my list of someone to resent.l

socharlotte - when I was teenager (about a couple of decades ago) the adults had the same conversation ie standards were higher when they were at school.

Each generation like to think that people were nicer when they were young, the world was a nicer place, children more respectful, more literate, better at maths etc etc etc.

Assuming this isn't a wind up when she's all grown up she'll probably be exactly like you only more middle class :).

socharlotte - "Up to about 10 years ago I used to teach basic accountancy (AAT level 2) at night school.the students were of all ages, but one striking thing was that those over 50 (ie over 60) now had a very sound understanding of basic maths."

Do not underestimate the extra years of practice they have had! I am an awful lot better at many things today, aged 46, than I was aged 18.

Oops - wrong thread :)

"Are you suggesting that because they pay more tax, wealthier people deserve better schools for their children?"

This is exactly what happens in the US - US public schools are paid for from local taxes, which bring in a lot more revenue in wealthier areas.

Jenai - I just noticed your post. As I said in my disclaimer I am not saying that well off parents are entitled to a better school.

Bonsoir I am so pleased to read someone else point out how it can be the extra years of experience rather than schooling that makes someone more numerate at 50 than at 15!

I've worked with people of all ages from all kinds of backgrounds and have met many, many "older" people whose levels of literacy, numeracy and general knowledge leave a lot to be desired.

From an entirely personal perspective it wasn't until I'd worked behind bars that my mental arithmetic reached a decent standard. 12yo ds's skills in that area (mental arithmetic, not barwork ) are far better than mine already. I'm not thick, either.

Oh and he's at a comprehensive, should anyone care. L5 maths in KS2 SATs so bright enough but not exactly G&T.

The overwhelming majority of those children get good GCSEs at a comprehensive school too. They don't have to be sequestered to do it!