To think that grammar schools should either be scrapped altogether or available in every county?

[Perriwinkle]

How can it possibly be fair or reasonable to have them only in certain counties?

I know that many people will say "how can a system that supposedly favours the brightest ten percent of children, ever be fair?" but personally, I've actually got no beef with that provided that the opportunity to attend these schools is available to the brightest children in all counties.

How can it be equitable that the brightest children who live in counties which do not have a grammar school system are routinely failed by the comprehensive system whilst those who live in certain counties are not because they are able to attend high performing State-funded grammar schools?

I think if you're anti grammar schools altogether you should probably hide this thread. This is not meant to be a thread about the pros and cons, relative merits, inequalities or shortcomings of either the grammar school system or the comprehensive system. It is a simply a question of wishing to hear any reasonable justification that may be put forward for the continued existence of the grammar school system in its current guise.

How can it be fair to continue restricting the opportunity to enjoy a priveliged grammar school education (akin to that which many people pay handsomely for in the private sector) only to children who live in certain parts of the country?

[seeker]

Well, you "keep going on" about me and mine- how about you talk to and about some other people on this thread for a while and give me a break?

[Bonsoir]

It is a tutor's moral duty to manage parental expectations, not just to take the money and tutor a hopeless case.

IME, parents and children are mostly not completely naïve as to where DCs stand versus their peer group. Only a few children at the margins are going to feel like failures if they don't pass their 11+.

[RussiansOnTheSpree]

And in most of the country the really bright probably aren't served as well as they could be. It's not just about exam results, you know. It's also about what you study and how you study it. Wanting equitable treatment for the very bright is not the same as suggesting their needs trump everyone else's.

But in fact, for the country as a whole, it's very important that these kids don't have their potential squandered. Just as important as not squandering the potential of everybody else. And I don't see why they should be short changed to suit a political agenda. You would do far better to campaign against private education which is the real scandal in this country.

[LaVolcan]

bringmeroses - you did say like it or not, most comps don't provide. which forgive me, I read as you stating a fact and not an opinion.

[bringmeroses]

Seeker you haven't addressed the private school issue.

One of my reasons for favouring GS/SS education is it allows those who can't afford it to have the same sort of education as those who can. Why is this a bad thing? Or would you ban private schools too - the obvious conclusion.

Would you make all universities 'access for all'?

I'm not talking about academic kids being better (and I think someone else has posted that grammars have better facilities/equipment than other schools, is this true? Don't want to be imagining things do I :) )
I am talking about having different provision for kids who are intelligent in different ways. I know people with music/technical/sporting skills I couldn't hope to learn or match; their ability needs to be equally valued along with academics, socially if not financially, being realistic. Footballers and Richard Branson excepted.

[seeker]

LaQueen. oK. you win. The people who are calling for the return of grammar schools would be just as happy to call the campaign "Bring Back Secondary Moderns" and would be delighted to send their children to one. That's fine.

[BegoniaBampot]

Le Queen, I don't think you think it's not a 'lesser' education at all.

[Bonsoir]

Most people I know talk about the reintroduction of selective education, not a return to a particular past manifestation of selective education.

[seeker]

Ah. Obviously you can't avoid being rude.

[RussiansOnTheSpree]

laQueen I went to Cambridge from a comp. and my old school sent 3 pupils there last year. Of course it happens. It happens a lot. That doesn't mean that superselectives aren't better for certain kids though. It just means that you can have a great comp in an area where there are 3 potential superselectives you could go to instead, if you wanted to schlep for an hour east west or south.

[Bonsoir]

And seeker - if you are so terribly frustrated with selective education, why don't you move house? It seems weird to want to live in a part of the country where your personal values are so at odds with the values of the society around you.

[seeker]

I do think it's funny the assumption that if you fail the 11+ by 1 mark, you have all sorts of practical, vocational skills and you need to go to a school that trains you for being a foreman in a factory, or to be a factory worker if you're in the lower sets, while the grammar school kids go off to be professional types. It's like being in a 1950's time warp. Now where did I leave my Tardis?

[bringmeroses]

LaVolcan, that's what I think. If that's not what YOU think, why not tell me why instead of missing the point of this discussion?

[bringmeroses]

Seeker, thank you for pointing out that life is not in fact black and white!

Now can you tell me what you think of the private education question and my view that GS/SS helps working class people compete, I'm genuinely interested in your opinion.

[Yellowtip]

Well I'm joining you on the cynics bench Queen. I've lived where I do for thirty years and around here, where there is a superselective taking the top 5-10%, a great many parents feel the grammar wouldn't be a good fit for their child and are quite happy for them to go to the comp. It's not seen as 'a lesser education' seeker. The comps might be avoided by some of the better off set who can opt to go private but for ordinary parents who don't have the spare cash the comp is often the right fit for their child. One hears it often and I'm quite often asked questions about the grammar by parents who are unsure about it for one reason or another. Of course there are children whose parents are disappointed that the DS or DD doesn't get in but the sensible ones are philosophical and move on. No-one I know personally has ever nursed a huge grudge about their child not getting in, they see it as a sign that that sort of education wasn't therefore appropriate for their child. In the same way I don't believe the comp would have been the best fit for any of my DC, for a variety of reasons including the fact that at least two of the boys would have messed around for even longer than they've managed at the grammar which would have been a shame, long term.

[LaVolcan]

To follow seekers post of 14:55 re failing by one mark: look at the test itself - obviously it varies but seems to be a mixture of English, Maths and VR/NVR. Has anyone heard of a test where each child is expected to submit a piece of craft work to assess their practical skills, or play an instrument/sing (specialist music schools excepted) or be assessed on their sporting prowess? I have never heard of an 11+ like that, although logically, if you are trying to sort children into the right sort of schools you would need to do this. But then, what about the good all rounder?

[RussiansOnTheSpree]

@bringme The grammar school DD1 goes to gets less funding per head than all of the comps. And the facilities are fine but not in the same league as some of the comps. Rather better than the portacabins I was educated in though.

[bringmeroses]

Russians yes I thought that was the way round it usually is rather than vice versa. LaVolcan are you saying there should be selection for all, or that grammar schools should go beyond being academically selective? I think private schools offering music/art/sporting scholarships meet some of your criteria. And a good all rounder would have a choice.

Yellow and LaQueen is there room for one more on the bench :) [tries not to get LaQueen's cross glitter on clothes]