To think that grammar schools should either be scrapped altogether or available in every county?

[Perriwinkle]

How can it possibly be fair or reasonable to have them only in certain counties?

I know that many people will say "how can a system that supposedly favours the brightest ten percent of children, ever be fair?" but personally, I've actually got no beef with that provided that the opportunity to attend these schools is available to the brightest children in all counties.

How can it be equitable that the brightest children who live in counties which do not have a grammar school system are routinely failed by the comprehensive system whilst those who live in certain counties are not because they are able to attend high performing State-funded grammar schools?

I think if you're anti grammar schools altogether you should probably hide this thread. This is not meant to be a thread about the pros and cons, relative merits, inequalities or shortcomings of either the grammar school system or the comprehensive system. It is a simply a question of wishing to hear any reasonable justification that may be put forward for the continued existence of the grammar school system in its current guise.

How can it be fair to continue restricting the opportunity to enjoy a priveliged grammar school education (akin to that which many people pay handsomely for in the private sector) only to children who live in certain parts of the country?

I am not usually one to agree with Seeker, so this may be a first.

The comps round here are similar to the one seeker mentions, we will be unable to access the extra curricular activities that dd will require.
It doesn't make you a snob because your dc are particularly interested in these things.
It is also true however that seemingly better schools do have these activities.
I would bet that even at a GS you are not going to get the standard of education in these activities as you would by going private anyway.
Of course it isn't a class thing. I am proud of my working class status if that's what I am, it hasn't stopped me from doing what I want nor do I lack cultural taste.

exotic - I joined MN just before Christmas and quickly stumbled across seekers rants about her DS having the school carol service in the hall while her DD's posh GS had theirs at a church.

My initial impression was what a snob. So when others referred to seekers hypocrisy in earlier threads i did a search on her posts and saw the complaints about locals looking down on those who failed the 11+ and how her DS felt a failure

Since then, seeker can always be relied on to pop up on such threads and recycle the same stuff.

In other words, yes I have read seekers posts :)

Elite is a funny old word isn't it.

1charlie1, I do see your point, and of course a child that has had tutoring or private schooling will have a better chance of passing the 11+. But I'm not just using my child as an example, I'm just saying that if parents have the right attitude then grammar school is accessible to them if they have one available.

There is heaps of free information on the Internet about the 11+, practice papers etc, and while the books in WHSmiths aren't cheap, they are easily available to parents who want to prioritise spending that tenner on a book rather than on a takeaway or whatever. That's all we did, and I really can't see why anyone else can't do it if they want to.

That's why all this talk of unfairness irritates me. I don't see why opportunities should be taken away from all children just because some parents don't want to put in a bit of effort with their own child.

"You are basically saying that all children should miss out on something they will benefit from because some parents are crap at parenting."

No I'm not. Or that's not what I mean, anyway. What I mean is that the good stuff that happens in grammar schools should be available to all children. Which could happen if they were all in the same school.

Not taking away from one group. Just giving stuff to more.

My DH went to QE boys Barnet in the late 60s/early 70s. He came from a grindingly working class background. He had to leave after O levels because his dad died so that was that - he had to go out and get a job (same story with my mum, actually, she was pulled out of her grammar school by her dad the day her mum died and within a week she was in service). Unlike my mum, DH went back into education when he was a bit older - 21 or 22 I think. He went to teacher training college, then did a degree at Birkbeck while working as a teacher, then did a masters at UEA. I don't know if he would have done all that without the stint at the grammar school and the decent spread of O levels he got there.

My understanding is that seeker is stuck with a system she doesn't like and she wants all DCs to have the same i.e. the best. I was lucky- I didn't like grammar schools and was able to move.

Some Grammars are great at music and drama. Some are mumps. Some comps and sec mods are great at music and drama, some are mumps. Christians from the croydon area may remember Holy Boy - that was written by and first performed at the catholic sec mod. Which had a very good reputation for music. For years, and still to this day, the best school (including the posh ones in the consideration) for music in Croydon is my old school which has been a comp since 1978. But music was traditionally good in croydon - the director of music for the borough in the 70s and 80s, a lovely little welsh bloke whose name I shamefully can't remember, was one of the most committed educators I have ever known.

The quality of arts ed and extra curricular activities have always always depended first and foremost on the attitude of the LEA, then the head teacher, then the governors and staff. The type of school really doesn't matter - if the people in charge aren't interested it doesn't matter if its the poshest school in the world - it won't happen.

Thank you, exotic, but I would ignore, it's my particular name changing troll back again.

Russian- that sounds exactly what grammar schools were created for. Sadly, that would never happen nowadays.

I still find it hard to believe there are whole counties without a Grammar school. I knew there were some areas of Counties which didn't, we don't exactly have tons in Lancashire and we would have to travel, there aren't enough, but we do have several.

Incidentally according to DH there was no music at QE boys Barnet in his day. He may be mistaken though. Perhaps he just didn't have any interest at that time.

Russians

Can't argue with that. My dh has taught his particular musical instrument in conservatoires, Boarding, sel Grammar, indie and state, throughout his career and says likewise.

Seeker I hope you aren't calling me a troll. I think that would be entirely unjustified. Also extremely rude. I explained that I had changed my name in the AF thread.

Re your comment about what grammar schools were created for - I don't understand - to cause premature deaths in the parents of their working class pupils? I think myself that both my mums school and DHs school were a bit mumps just letting the kids be withdrawn - my mum's more than DHs, he was at least post O level.

A lot of people are stuck with comps they don't like as well exotic.

The national problem is that a lot of state schools, whether comp or SM, are failing our children. Rather than advance ideas for resolving this problem seeker's platform is to ban GSs so that MC parents will be forced to go to her SM and from that her DS will have some nice MC friends to play classical music with.

What I mean is that the good stuff that happens in grammar schools should be available to all children. Which could happen if they were all in the same school.

I completely agree that the good stuff that happens in grammar schools should be available to all children. But I think the good stuff that happens in good comprehensives and not in others should be available to all children too.

If that's the point you are making, then your argument really isn't with grammar schools. It's with secondary moderns that don't fulfil the needs of their students, and it's with comps, or academies that don't offer everything they could.

I don't agree that what you are asking for could only happen if all children are in the same type of schools. Because as you will be aware, there are already massive differences in what comprehensive schools offer. And there is no reason that these extras can't be available in all types of school.

I wonder how people who make claims about there being very few WC kids at GS, can act5ually know this.Even in a primary with a class of 30 kids, how do you know what class they are?

Fair point socharlotte. FSMs is not an indicator of anything much really. There are plenty of people that are working class or who are struggling financially that aren't entitled to FSMs.

Absolutely not, Russian- and I'm so sorry you thought that- even for a second. You must have missed the -intemperate- posts from someone else.

Ah, ok. Yes, I think I understand. And I can see that that sort of reference to your DCs is completely unacceptable. It was never my intention to make that sort of deeply personal reference, When I asked why you were so unhappy with that school, I hope you realise that. I can completely understand why, if the music is rubbish, you don't like the school. A school without music is a shell, as far as I'm concerned. But I know plenty of 'really good' schools with really crawl music. And I've known 'poor' sec mods with brilliant music. As I tried to explain above - arts Ed is different.

Crap. Not crawl. A mixture of iPhone autocorrect, interrupting kids and some goals being scored (and missed) I think.

The essential target that a secondary school should achieve is that every single student should finish school being demonstrably able to read, write and count. For every student who is not able to achieve this the HT should be required to show the specific measures which were taken to remedy this

If the HT is unable to do this then he/she should be handed his/her arse and P45 on a plate.

In my area we dont just not have grammar schools we also dont have decent comprehensive schools and we dont have a choice. My DCs have the dubious privilege of attending a school which ranks in the bottom 5% in Britain.

IMO the arguments about whether or not GS are a good idea are missing the point when abysmal schools are allowed to continue.

I don't see why it is difficult to believe there are whole counties without grammar schools - there are only 164 in England- and well over 3000 secondary schools. You get the impression from this thread that grammar schools are relevant to most children, rather than a tiny minority. Scotland and Wales don't have any.

I didn't actually realise there anywhere near as many grammar schools left until I joined MN.

I don't think it's surprising that education and this topic gets people heated and often resentful. If we are paying taxes and relying on a state education, it must be a bitter pill that some folk's kids get the chance of a better education and experience than some others. That could be those who get to grammar or those who get a good comp or sec mod (didn't even know they existed). At least with private schools those folk are paying for whatever education their child gets and choose and get what they pay for.

On the surface I can't help but think why do some kids (a minority) get the chance to have what is seen as a much better education than the rest at the cost of the tax payer. Maybe this has opened my eyes a little as we don't have grammars and I'm not familiar with the system and 11+ etc so it could be a little bit of jealousy but is that surprising?

It isn't a better education- it is a better education for those that are suited to an academic education.
The problem lies in the fact that firstly you can't tell, in many cases, at the tender age of 10 and 11 years and secondly the DCs fit the places instead of the places fitting the DCs so that one mark may put you in a grammar rather than a secondary modern- and another year, with more competition, it wouldn't get you a place.
It is seen as best- generally because the grammar school will have the motivated DCs who see value in education and want to learn, therefore parents 'teach to the test'- and see it as an end rather than the start. The DC has to cope once they get there- they find it difficult if they have just been drilled.
I never wanted a grammar school place for DS2- he wasn't suited - however I don't see why he can't be educated in the same school as his academic brother. His friends have always been the more academic types- why separate them at 11yrs? He may have left school at 16 yrs (and got a very good apprenticeship) but his girlfriend has just got a good degree from a RG university. Anyone would think that you can only mix with a very narrow band of similar types! Those that are not academic can still be bright, motivated and have a strong work ethic! There is no need to separate them at a young age. A good school can manage them all under the same roof - which then gives them chance to change direction at any point.