Mass Immigration, scare mongering??

[Flickstix]

Am I being unreasonable to think it is a problem or am I just falling prey to media propaganda? The whole EU debate seems to have highlighted it but I would like to understand it better.

alemci Sat 26-Jan-13 12:21:51

"My grandparents were immigrants and grandad had to flee because of persecution so understand I am on not totally unsympathetic towards asylum seekers and refugees but I do think there have been too many economic migrants who want a better life but need our welfare system to house them etc."

I knew several Brits in Sweden who had come there in pursuit of a better paid job- the scrounging bastards! They also liked the state subsidised childcare and other general welfare conditions. There is an Anglican church in my home town catering for British ex-pats so there must be a fair few of them about.

I have an American friend who was being ranted at by another American the other day. He was up on his high horse about immigrants coming to his country. So she asked him which Native American tribe he had descended from and he shut his big fat mouth.

Most of us will have elements of other cultures and countries in our genetic make up. We have always been a country with a great mixture of different people. What exactly is this British culture that is being threatened? Are you the sort of person to tut at a Mosque being opened in your street?

manicbmc - There is a difference between immigration (good thing imo) and mass immigration, the latter causing very real (and perceived) problems.

It is media scaremongering at its worst.

Wouldn't it just be great to be told straight up what the actual thoughts and figures were thoughts were on immigration, without them being massaged to fit agendas whether it be those supporting or against it. Would really love to hear what all the politicians say to each other on the subject behind close doors.

I try not to judge, it is only a short while ago that the Irish came in droves for work and benefits then now have generations of family here (my husband as an example) but the Eastern European immigrants seem to be here in scary numbers and I am fed up with reading about crimes committed by immigrants.

I bet the crimes committed by British citizens far outweigh the number committed by immigrants. But those crimes aren't reported because they are too numerous to be newsworthy and won't stir up the kind of hatred some of the media are aiming for.

Ok I've read the daily mail article and I'm struggling to see what it has to do with immigration from Europe or even immigration at all. As far as I can see (and apologies about poor spelling or if I miss any bits but once I start typing if I try and flick back to check I'll lose what I've written):-

In 2009 there were 16 families living on benefits in large houses in an expensive part of London

Of these 4 were mentioned who either were immigrants or were implied to be immigrants making it seem like this is an immigrant story

Of the 4 families:-

2 have been granted asylum from war torn countries - one of which we count as so evil, corrupt and terrible that for over a decade we have sent troops to fight against it (include the man who is 3rd in line to our throne)

1 has a mother who is from Jamaica - doesn't say anything about her father or indeed herself - but I guess "Francesca - who was born and educated in the Uk" doesn't quite pack the same punch.

1 is Irish. Are we including Ireland in counties we don't want immigrants from? Because I think that ship may have sailed.

So of the 16 families, 2 are genuinely immigrants, 1 is from Ireland and 1 has an immigrant as a close relative. Presumably the other 12 are British born and bred so weren't deemed worthy of a mention.

It also sounds, from reading it, as though the Afghan woman has found herself in the paper many times before. You'd think the DM would have found themselves their own immigrant benefit scrounger rather than borrowing everyone else's.

I'm not saying European migrants are not going to be a problem - I don't know enough to be sure - although I tend to side with MrsDV as she seems to have significant professional first hand experience. What I'm saying is that if you are going to believe what is in the papers you need to read the paper carefully. And think about the story that the journalist was sent out to find and whether the facts truly back up that story.

My personal experience is that I have a close family member who was vilified in the press a few years ago. I witnessed the event that was spoken about over and over again. The press stories were undoubtedly excellent for selling papers but had I not known I would not have realised they were about the same event. And I'm not going to say how much quotes were changed.

"I bet the crimes committed by British citizens far outweigh the number committed by immigrants. But those crimes aren't reported because they are too numerous to be newsworthy and won't stir up the kind of hatred some of the media are aiming for."
Of course they do! But we can't deport our own people. We have enough scum of our own, but we can prevent criminals from other countries coming here.

I started the thread about mass immigration rather than immigration in general.

There are 'good' & 'bad' citizens in any country whether they be immigrants or not. For me the issue was more about the impact of mass immigration into the UK and how it is affecting/will affect communities and the nation as a whole considering we are in a recession.

I also think people need to be careful about banding 'immigrants' together as a whole entity. People come here from so many different cultures & countries, all will have varying levels of education & will be here under differing circumstances.

What exactly is the difference between 'immigration (good thing imo) and mass immigration'?

Is it a matter of perception? I think it's all very subjective.

'Theoretically you could live in a mansion on housing benefit if you had enough children. You are allowed two children to a room, but boys & girls over the age of 7 need their own room. If you lived in central London and had 8 children you could have a house with a minimum of 6 bedrooms at the average local rental price.'
And some of it is even theoretical...

'The problem is that if most of the immigrants are lower or working class, with little education, and dependants then how can we expect them to contribute to society? All it does is create an underclass living below our own underclass. Not good for anyone.'
...while some don't even like the poor already resident in the UK.

Mass immigration is when you have a larger than average influx of people, and in the UK's case we may not have the infrastructure to cope with the influx, i.e housing, health services, jobs & benefits.

Does anyone know what the projected numbers of migrants are being based on? I'm wondering because like I said further up the thread from what I read in Romania there aren't huge numbers of people waiting for the rules to change. The situation is very different from when Romania joined the EU and the first wave happened and most people who want to work overseas have already found a way to do it.

So not quantifiable really?

Every Eastern European who comes to this country has to work for at least a year before being entitled to any benefits, so I don't understand how anyone can claim right after entering the country??? None of the EE people I know is claiming any.

As for council houses - yes my Polish friends got them while my local friends are still waiting. That's because they accepted tiny flats in dogy areas in need of refurbishment my other friends wouldn't touch with a barge pole. They are now paying running rate rents for stock that would have to be demolished. Housing association is using their money to build naice semi-detached houses nearby (on a wasteland, no trees are being felled), my local friends will soon be moving into. Win all around.

I'm surprised at all of you claiming that the country is overcrowded. We're looking for school for our son now and every primary we visited is desperate for children. Class sizes are rarely more than 20 and some schools have retorted to making composite classes. This is in a very average to bad area. In nicer areas not far from us a third of the schools is earmarked for closure due to dwindling numbers, proof is here: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-21094500
And here you can check that only 1.5% of land in UK is actually built over, so no need to worry about green land: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18623096

I don't understand the pessimism and the urge to dwell on not very well founded dangers, conspiracies etc. I see the same thing in my country, where a good proportion of society is getting really paranoid about the crash that killed Polish president a couple years ago and believes in totally made-up evidence against Russia and some Polish politicians.

Needles to say, I'm not worried about Romanians. I'm pretty sure they will prefer nearby warm and sunny France and Italy. If they decide to up the sticks at all. Eight countries joined the EU in 2004, but Poland was the only nation that jumped at the chance to move.

The mp said on news night they have to be he three months before they can claim benefits.

Indahouse - population density is a lot greater in the south east than in, say, Bearsden or Milngavie. It really is quite packed in London and 1 hour drive radius.

Most people immigrating to the uk head to or at least start in the south east. Not east dunbartonshire.

And Particularly because Bearsden doesn't really have many immigrant communities! The Scottish experience of immigration is very different to the south.

Indahouse - in the south many, many schools are oversubscribed. Don't know how you can quote the situation where you are as though it's like that throughout the UK.

idaouse - where we live in the south schools are oversubscribed. my kids secondary rejects kids each year. only the really bad schools are undersubscribed. No primary is desperate for kids here - unless its failing.

they are talking about building 500 houses on green belt land to meet demand. this is agricultural land that has been protected from building for ever - in part to protect the environment, but also we need land to produce food of course.

france has the same population as the uk but double the land area.

i think you must live in the north

O I love it.
The MP says it is the welfare that takes up most of the countries tax. (yeah right)
Now we are over flooded with immigrates that are one day "Taking all the UK's jobs" and the next day "taking all our welfare money".

People really are blinded by the media!!!

Dreamingofsun, why doesn't your council build, extend or improve schools then? I'm pretty sure the houses in green belt are being built for middle classes rather than immigrants, but DM still managed to make a great headline out of it.

No land will produce food unless immigrants work on it. Only immigrants are likely to choose back-breaking farm work over Job seeker Allowance. And please do have a look on my second link.

viva
Yes they will have to wait three months to receive benefits. But to a family already hungry in Romania that is no disincentive to coming here.

Sallyingforth, I agree. Someone just before me said they had to wait a year and I was thinking they were wrong. I think a year would me more of a disincentive to those coming with no intention of working.

When I moved to the UK from Germany, theoretically I could have had 3 months worth of Job Seekers' paid for by the German state. After that I would have had to return to Germany. I think that's the same rule for other EU countries, too.

Thankfully I found a job straight away and paid hefty tax in the first few months as it takes ages to sort out a national insurance number and until you've got it you're put onto an emergency tax code.

Can you even claim benefits in the UK without an NI number?

I've only read the first 2 pages so apologies if this has been covered, but no. EU citizens cannot just arrive here and start claiming benefits. They have to have worked or been job-seeking for a period of 6 months first.

The problem is that Jobcentre staff are not doing their jobs properly and don't check so often it is possible to start claiming benefits when you are not entitled to them.