Mass Immigration, scare mongering??

[Flickstix]

Am I being unreasonable to think it is a problem or am I just falling prey to media propaganda? The whole EU debate seems to have highlighted it but I would like to understand it better.

[roughtyping]

Indahouse - Scotland and its schools are v different from English schools I think. Lots of them have 3 form entry etc (which is what is being proposed for EDC, ive worked in one school with three form entry and it was one of the biggest schools in Glasgow).

However, EDC might be different but lots of areas of Glasgow have high numbers of Eastern Europeans. They are living in places no one else wants to live. They are not taking houses because no Scottish people will consent to live in them. I feel rotten for people coming here looking for something better - esp the children. They can be sent across the city to a school in a totally different area.

[mathanxiety]

Sunshine401 -- very funny post and so true.

[GothAnneGeddes]

EU citizens cannot claim asylum either, there is only a limited list of countries you can claim asylum from.

So whoever it was upthread, who claimed that Romanians can come over and claim a house are talking rubbish.

I have read several articles that the predicted clamour to come to the UK is somewhat overstated. Bulgaria is doing quite well in the recession, Romania is also seeing growth.

I'm not ok with Australia being help up as a shining example of anything immigration wise.

[Trazzletoes]

God no, Australia's immigration system is barbaric!

[Trazzletoes]

There's no list of countries from which you can claim asylum. However there is a list (the white list) of countries from which if a citizen claims asylum it will be certified as being unfounded and automatically refused with no right of appeal. EU countries are on this list.

[lainiekazan]

The problem is that people at the bottom of the heap may well wish to come here in large numbers. It is stating the obvious that an established doctor/dentist/engineer would not be upping sticks and coming to Britain. However, my experience of Italy is that the Roma who have entered there in large numbers are a problem.

And don't tell me there isn't one because I have witnessed it repeatedly with my own eyes: public gardens no go areas in daylight , huge increase in street crime, pressure on schools and health services. These are not people who are working (Moroccans have cornered the market in building work and there is a Russian work scheme whereby people can come and look after old people etc) to contribute in any way.

[Mosman]

FreudiansSlipper I've worked in recruitment in Australia for 5 years 2000-2005 and the past 6 months and not interviewed on indigenous person for any role at all, not even the equality and indigenous support positions which is a shame but they do have to meet us half way and apply to the advertisements.

[dreamingofsun]

idahouse - houses being proposed for the green belt are a mix of larger houses and affordable housing. yes some of it will be for middle classes - we have a lot of people who move here from london because they no longer want to live there - schooling apparently is an issue in london, especially in some areas where english is no longer the predominant language.

the local authority has built a further school, but they are all still oversubscribed.

[LayMizzRarb]

Australia's immigration policies protect those who already reside and pay taxes in the country. You cannot sustain a welfare system if there is increasing need each year without the extra funds. They will have to raise taxes and cut benefits just like they have in this country.
A mother can stand at her front door and feed every hungry child she sees going by, but there will come a time when there is no food left, not even for her own children.

[flatpackhamster]

I was going to leave this thread alone, crammed as it is with the usual suspects who, because their lives are so blissfully unaffected by mass immigration, think it's marvellous. However, the extraordinary post below forced me out of my torpor.

GothAnneGeddes

EU citizens cannot claim asylum either, there is only a limited list of countries you can claim asylum from.

So whoever it was upthread, who claimed that Romanians can come over and claim a house are talking rubbish.

They can. Next year, Romanians and Bulgarians can travel anywhere within the EU, settle and work there, and have the right to claim benefits, including housing. That's what being in the EU means. It creates a level playing field, except that it isn't level because we don't all speak the same language and we don't all earn the same. The result of that is that everyone comes to the UK, which is rich and which speaks English.

I have read several articles that the predicted clamour to come to the UK is somewhat overstated. Bulgaria is doing quite well in the recession, Romania is also seeing growth.

Bulgaria is doing quite well? 44% of the country lives in poverty. Not 'British' poverty, which isn't poverty at all, but real poverty.

The average salary in Romania is about $4,000 a year. Their economy is corrupt and moribund. Its economy has shrunk every year for the last three years. It's an economic and political basket case, and as of next year every single Romanian will have the right to come to the UK.

The estimates of migration next year are wrong, by at least a factor of two. I estimate at least a million will have arrived by 2017.

I'm not ok with Australia being help up as a shining example of anything immigration wise.

Australia's system is a shining example of how to secure a country and protect unskilled and semi-skilled workers from wage deflation and competition for scarce public services.

[BegoniaBampot]

This all confusing, I watched a documentary recently about young Poles in the UK. They all had to find work to pay for their rent and costs or they generally went home if they couldn't support themselves in the UK. Didn't look like anything was just handed to them.

[pettyprudence]

flatpack I would love to know where you get your figures from (particulrly 1 million by 2017)?

I like the website you link to - it shows that there has been some growth in the Romanian economy, a small dip in unempolyment after some growth and a drop in net migration. And the latest figures show that 21% of Romanians live below the poverty line (although I agree its a very different poverty line to that of the UK). They also seem to be doing fairly well with industrial production.

[ComposHat]

I think that if people are going to monger there are other options when it comes to mongering, rather than scare. If they want anything to monger may i suggest the following alternatives:

cheese
fish
gossip
whores

[GothAnneGeddes]

Flatpack -

1. I live just outside of Birmingham in an a hugely multi-cultural area, with lots of immigration from the Windrush era right up until the present day. I am also married to a Non-EU immigrant, now UK citizen, so have personal experience of the UK immigration system.
   
   
2. EU citizens cannot claim asylum. Repeat: they cannot claim asylum. As discussed upthread, there is no instant benefits or housing for them, others have described the process in greater detail, I suggest you go and read it.
   
   As for your comments about what is real poverty and what is not... I was going to go into a discussion about methods of measuring poverty and that it important to look not just as poverty but at social inequality too, but considering that you're probably the sort of person who'd start ranting about flat-screen televisions, I can't be bothered.
   
   As pretty stated, both Romania and Bulgaria are predicted to have economic growth, also travel patterns vary from country to country, Italy is likely to be a more attractive option for Romanians then the UK, for example. Hungary is a long term EU member, yet has had very little outward migration, despite also having similar economic issues, the same goes for Estonia and Slovenia.
   
   Compo - quite.

[Harriet35]

Australia's immigration policy is the one that we should adopt.

[Mosman]

Australia is raising taxes and adopting protectionism and you know what, the Australian's don't seem to mind in the slightest as long as the immigration policy is kept under control. That's what wins elections and is important to them, to preserve the life they have for their children.
It's certainly not the land of milk and honey that many expect but if you've got a pulse and want a job you'll get one.

[mathanxiety]

So as of today, Flatpack, Romanians can't actually claim a house, etc. ?

They will have to wait until next year to do that? In the meantime, are they 'claiming houses'?

[thanksamillion]

I've said this several times already but I agree with Goth. From what I hear in Romania there just aren't hoards of people just waiting to come. Those that wanted to have found a way, and the UK just isn't the first choice for lots. Italy is much more similar in terms of culture and Italian is very easy for Romanian speakers to pick up.

Does anyone know where you can get stats on how many migrants are leaving (iyswim)? because the other thing is that most people here who have left to work abroad have done so on a temporary basis, often leaving family behind, and fully intend to come back.

[Flossle]

this article this morning about government plans to curb immigration

[Flossle]

and this from the Guardian

[flatpackhamster]

pettyprudence

flatpack I would love to know where you get your figures from (particulrly 1 million by 2017)?

That's my estimate. When the government allowed Poles and other migrants in early and without limits, its estimate for total migration was out by a factor of 5. I think that the current estimates are also likely to be out by the same.

I like the website you link to - it shows that there has been some growth in the Romanian economy, a small dip in unempolyment after some growth and a drop in net migration. And the latest figures show that 21% of Romanians live below the poverty line (although I agree its a very different poverty line to that of the UK). They also seem to be doing fairly well with industrial production.

In 20 years time, they may be ready to join the EU.

GothAnneGeddes

1) I live just outside of Birmingham in an a hugely multi-cultural area, with lots of immigration from the Windrush era right up until the present day. I am also married to a Non-EU immigrant, now UK citizen, so have personal experience of the UK immigration system.

That isn't personal experience of the UK immigration system. Nor does it have any bearing here apart from as a tool for you to imply your social superiority. Sorry, that only works on Guardian readers, not on me.

2) EU citizens cannot claim asylum. Repeat: they cannot claim asylum. As discussed upthread, there is no instant benefits or housing for them, others have described the process in greater detail, I suggest you go and read it.

I never said they could. Repeat: I never said they could.

I suggest you re-read my post in greater detail.

As for your comments about what is real poverty and what is not... I was going to go into a discussion about methods of measuring poverty and that it important to look not just as poverty but at social inequality too, but considering that you're probably the sort of person who'd start ranting about flat-screen televisions, I can't be bothered.

I'm sure you're the sort of person who is so convinced of their moral superiority that they can't imagine for a moment that anyone could question their authority.

What a shame you have no actual arguments and so you resort to arguing about things you imagine I might have said.

As pretty stated, both Romania and Bulgaria are predicted to have economic growth, also travel patterns vary from country to country, Italy is likely to be a more attractive option for Romanians then the UK, for example.

I can 'predict' economic growth. Doesn't mean it's going to happen. And why on earth would Romanians go to Italy? Not only are there no jobs there for anyone but Italians, there's casual violence against Roma and they don't speak Italian?

Hungary is a long term EU member, yet has had very little outward migration, despite also having similar economic issues, the same goes for Estonia and Slovenia.

[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonians Estonia has the largest outward migration of any of the 27 EU nations.]

Do you even check your facts before you make spurious claims , or do you imagine that your Multi-Culti credentials mean that you don't have to?

mathanxiety

So as of today, Flatpack, Romanians can't actually claim a house, etc. ?

My post specifically said 'next year'. I wrote 'next year' and I meant 'next year'.

They will have to wait until next year to do that? In the meantime, are they 'claiming houses'?

No. Nor will they be able to use the asylum system to do so.

It's funny, but I notice a theme here. I notice an awful lot of people trying to address arguments I never made.

[thanksamillion]

Thank you Hesterton I was just about to make the same point about Roma and Romanians not necessarily being the same thing.

flatpackhamster And why on earth would Romanians go to Italy? Not only are there no jobs there for anyone but Italians, there's casual violence against Roma and they don't speak Italian? As I said earlier, I am in a neighbouring country to Romania, speak Romanian and know many Romanians. Italy is a very popular choice. Yes it's harder to find work now, but there are many established Romanian comunities there, the culture is more similar and linguistically Italian is very similar to Romanian. A Romanian speaker can generally understand Italian without too much difficulty. You may find it hard to believe but it is true. And as Hesterton said not all Romanians are Roma.

[MummytoKatie]

Flatpack If GothAnne husband is anything like mine she does have personal experience of immigration. I have a dh who used to be part self employed and got plenty of experience of tax returns from it!

[MummytoKatie]

thanksamill is the "Roman" in Romania connected to the Romans? If so - it would make perfect sense that Romanian and Italian are similar languages.