AIBU to just not like nurseries very much?

[HardlyEverHoovers]

Before I had my own child I occasionally had to spend some time in nurseries as part of my studies etc, this made me decide I didn't want to work with children, NOT because I don't like the kids but because I don't really like the environment. Thought I might feel differently with my own BUT went to visit a nursery yesterday, thought this would be the one, lots of likeminded friends love it and send their kids there, but just came out feeling completely uninspired.
It's a general feeling of discomfort but here are some specifics:
They said they would 'assess' my 2 year old, is this really necessary?
They seem to be trying to impose structure on children who are too young to understand it and they just look totally mystified.
They write down virtually everything they do which seems a bit uneccessary.
They showed me the toilet/changing area and it occurred to me that DS would be having his nappy changed by someone other than me or his dad and that makes me uncomfortable.

Am I missing something? Is there a sort of nursery I could try and find which is a bit more 'free range'? I love the idea of forest nurserys where the kids are outside all the time but I can't find any near us.

Thankfully we don't need to send him as at least one of us is at home all day, but just wondering why I feel like this when most people seem to think it's a good thing.

p.s. really really no offence to nursery staff who I know are very skilled, love kids and have mountains of patience.

I am annoyed that people claim to know what is best for all children on no evidence. On only their preferences/prejudices/fears. And then projecting that out on a wider audience in a way that is inevitably to suggest that people who don't agree are 'lesser'.

You may characterise that as 'a strop' if you like. I prefer to think its a bit more dignified and is based on a reasonable and important point.

I think people should at least recognise the limitations of their 'preferences'. that doesn't stifle debate. But it does encourage people to think. Which can't be a bad thing.

:o @ "all about the money"

Unless you are part of a co-op, that's the deal with buying childcare

wow. So I suppose it is also your 'opinion' that anyone who is paid to work with children is just a money grubbing capitalist with no interest, joy or passion for their interactions with children?

You have clearly had some bad experiences with professional childcare or you are simply immensely prejudiced.

This is what you call dignified? :o

Someone was being sniffy about CMs being "all about the money".

You could say the same about anyone who has to work for a living.

Just because someone needs to work doesn't mean they don't care about their job or do it very well.

I have only ever had good experiences with childcare.

But ultimately it is a business transaction. You are paying for your children to be cared for so you don't have to.

"that's the deal with childcare" that's the deal with all work to one extent or another. But it is a balance and for some that balance tips in favour of vocation.

Many of the nursery staff I met seemed to genuinely like and were interested in their job. Not so the CMs - they definitely left me with the impression that they were doing it because it was more cost effective than shelf stacking

Ok, you clearly can see nothing wrong in making these kind of comments, so I am on a hiding to nothing. Just hoping you would think a bit about their impact.

Of course there is good, bad and indifferent in every trade. I am happy to pay good money for good child care. I don't see the problem with that. I am fed up with the way that child care is downgraded and denigrated as a profession.

LOL and being in childcare for the money. Do you know how much childcare workers get paid?

"I am happy to pay good money for good child care. I don't see the problem with that. I am fed up with the way that child care is downgraded and denigrated as a profession."

Me too.

I'm bemused at you jumping down my throat over everything I say.

It would be nice to be able to talk about childcare without people like you trying to define the terms so narrowly the discussion becomes pointless and tedious.

Your extreme defensiveness makes it seem like childcare is something unspeakable that we should all be ashamed of using.

crashdoll I know a CM can earn a lot more than stacking shelves and frankly the handful I met when I looked probably would have made the grade for even that.

Disclaimer I have subsequently met a number of fantastic CM's but it doesn't change my view that a lot of people choose to become CMs because the pay is, comparatively speaking, reasonable, it's flexible and you can work whilst looking after your own DC. For many CMs it has nothing to do with wanting to work with children.

"a lot of people choose to become CMs because the pay is, comparatively speaking, reasonable, it's flexible and you can work whilst looking after your own DC."

So what?

What do you imagine are the motivations of the people who run the nurseries?

I don't need my children to be looked after by someone with a vocation for childcare.

Just someone who likes children and good with them.

Their motivation for taking the job isn't really of much consequence.

Meh, do what you like and what suits you.

What I've found works so far is a mix of intense attachment-ish parenting for the first few months - sling, co-sleeping, demand feeding, never left to cry etc - and then chuck 'em into a large pile of other babies when they're a bit older and it's time to go back to work. Seems to work in the animal kingdom.

I love nurseries. We've been lucky with ours I suppose - we knew other people who had used them and recommended them highly. DS1 has been to two nurseries and a pre-school (because of moving) and DS2 has been at the nursery attached to his brother's pre-school for 4 months so far. They both seem to love it. Whenever I go to pick them up they are happy and bouncy. The baby room in particular is like a litter of puppies - all squawking and rolling around beaming at each other and shouting "hiya" and having tugs-of-war over a teddy bear.

We've had no problems with this approach - we have two happy, confident, sociable children who go into nursery in the morning enthusiastically and seem pleased to see us when we pick them up - so clearly not too traumatised and miserable!

But I know a few full-on attachment parents who think I am some kind of aberration - how can I possibly do the whole sling/co-sleeping thing and then [gasp] just dump my child in nursery? I've been nagged senseless by one woman about using Montessori "if I really must use nursery."

Seriously, do whatever you want to do and be happy about it. Don't start asking other people what they think because five out of ten will think you are wrong, another four will think you're sort of right but they would do it better and another one will suggest you do something else entirely.

You are paying for your children to be cared for so you don't have to.

Foul on play.

Wholly uncalled for use of model verb implying intent to wriggle out of a imposed obligation.

And there it is in a nutshell. The lack of "for me" on proclamations like "I find x is best" is all about mother shaming.

For some people it's not enough that there is wide range of choices so they aren't stuck with something that doesn't suit. They have to infuse their choice with moral superiority.

God knows why. Maybe it tastes better that way ?

The trouble is no one can live your life in all its variable glory, so can't possibly know what's best for you and your DC.

You see I'd never dare utter any sort of parenting pronouncement without the "for me" disclaimer on the end.

Because I am fairly sure that, with 2 children under 4, I don't get this parenting thing absolutely 100% right, 100% of the time. I'm pretty sure I have/am/will make mistakes and the thing about mistakes is that you don't know you are making them until you've already made them. So at the time, you think you are getting it right.

So chances are you are going to finish up with egg on your face sooner or later if you go round making sweeping generalisations about what is right for all children.

I think we're getting more right than wrong at the moment, judging by the DSs current status. We'll re-visit some of our decisions when they're teenagers and cringe about any smugness about our superior parenting skills that turned out to be a whole load of utter arse.

"Wholly uncalled for use of model verb implying intent to wriggle out of a imposed obligation."

Sorry, I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

Do you?

"And there it is in a nutshell."

I think your nut might be rotten.

I've discovered that saying "hmm" alot, in a non-committal way is the best way to avoid parenting technique disputes.

It doesn't work online unfortunately....

Sorry, I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

That tends to be the issue when teaching grammar goes out of fashion.

My nut is best.

nut, even

"You see I'd never dare utter any sort of parenting pronouncement without the "for me" disclaimer on the end."

Well then why bother? It's basically meaningless if you tag it onto everything you say about parenting/children.

There is no need for everyone to be so fucking tense and uptight about this stuff that everything has to come with pointless disclaimers and unnecessary parentheses.

Take for example, this quote from earlier:
"I consciously choose nursery over a home-based setting because of the checks and balances that many hands to the pump at a nursery can provide"

Should I be apoplectic with rage that blueshoes thinks checks and balances are important for children when I choose childcare that doesn't afford that?

If she puts that she believes checks and balances are necessary for her child, is she saying they don't matter for mine?

Presumably she just thinks they are important. I don't agree.

I'm interested to hear that she thinks they matter when other things matter more to me.

Her adding in "for my child" is no different from saying "in my opinion" after every sentence.

It seems to me that we are all constantly making decisions based on our general ideas of what is best for children.

Those ideas differ.

And that's OK.

"That tends to be the issue when teaching grammar goes out of fashion."

It also tends to be the issue when people write badly.

Our two went to a lovely child led nursery. Fabulous.
A nanny or childminder might suit you better if you aren't keen on a nursery ; however, if you don't want anyone else changing your babies nappy then I think you're in trouble really!

But it is all good "for me"."

I have no idea whether it would be good for anyone else.

It's not uptight. It's not tense. It's just an acceptance that no-one is always right, and I am no exception.

I just find that saying "Well, I did it this way and it worked out okay" is a gentler way of sharing useful experiences than saying "You MUST do this. This is the RIGHT thing to do."

And less likely to make me look like a twat when DS1 turns into a juvenile delinquent the second he hits puberty.

I suppose you either feel the need for your own personal experience to be widely accepted as correct, or you are content with muddling along in your own way and having some people thinking you are right and some people thinking you are wrong and saying so. I remember all the flack I got for using a sling with DS1 full-time, and I'd rather not make any other new parent question their choices that way - most well-meaning parents will get it all broadly right, and if they have good intentions then chances are that all the good things they do will outweigh any bad decisions.

I also work in a field where I see a fair bit of the results of truly crap parenting. It makes your realise that all the choices that are debated on MN day-in, day-out are all one side of the coin, with the damaging, cruel, non-existent parenting on the other.

So if someone says "nurseries are great for little kids - all that attention and excitement, they love it."

Do you really need them to say "for my kids".

Isn't it just implied that they mean their kids, the children they know, in their opinion?

If someone says "oh, I think soft play is crap for kids, they get overstimulated and the equipment is full of germs"

Is that really so terrible?

I disagree, but hearing someone say that doesn't make me feel like a bad parent.

Am I the only person who is a little bit flattered when people start on with the "mum's care is the best" gubbins?

It might not be true.

It's almost certainly not true for my children (they could do better :o )

But it doesn't seem an outrageous thing to think that on balance children are best with their mother. I disagree, but I can hear it said without a red mist descending.

I just think that with something that can be such a touchy, hurtful subject for so many people, and something which, realistically, is never going to be conclusively resolved, there's just no need for anyone to be telling anyone else what is best for their children.

It's hard enough working out what's best for your own - I honestly don't know where people get the energy and the supreme confidence to think they have all the answers to anything to do with children.

I think acknowledging that you can only speak for yourself when it comes to one of the big child-raising decisions is the kind thing to do.

I obviously think my way is right. But I don't necessarily feel that I need to proclaim that at the risk of hurting someone who is feeling a bit wobbly about their choices. I think people can take unnecessary offence - but there are some big, scary decisions to be made regarding children, so it's understandable. So if I can phrase something a bit more carefully and make someone feel a bit less challenged and criticised, I'm okay with that. You still get your point across.

I think Spero's argument is a nonsense tbh

Of course it is acceptable - and inevitable - to have opinions about what is best for children in general. Do you think your child's teacher doesn't? How then do you think practitioners develop a personal ethos and principles? Everybody forms opinions, it's how the human mind works. I think child labour is destructive. I think smacking is wrong. I don't like seeing tiny babies with pierced ears because I think it is cruel and unnecessary.

Asking people to comment only in terms of their own empirical background and their own children is ridiculous. You can't suppress opinions and debate just because other people's views make you feel uncomfortable. If you feel you can't defend your choices, well, that's a matter for you to address. But don't come to a parenting discussion forum and pull people up on discussing parenting!

Madness. And pedantry.