to wonder why some women don't wear make-up

[MeganCherry]

I'm sure I will get flamed for this but -

I don't mean trowel it on every morning, 3 lots of foundations, eyeshadow, eyeliner etc.

I have quite good skin, so on a usual day I'll wear - mascara and a lipstick/glass. On a bad day I'll probably wear concealer too.

I think make up is about enhancing your features and making the best of them. Me after a sleepless night I look like a zombie, add some concealer and I look like a human being again.

I like to wear make up for me and not to impress my husband or friends or strangers. I just know that I look better when I'm wearing it.

' Mumsnet is one of the few general-interest women's forums'

This is true which is why this comment..

'The fact that you, apparently, can't understand that everything's political marks you out as one of the less rigorous thinkers on the site.'

...is pretty misogynistic, no? Are you saying that any woman who doesn't subscribe to your view is thick? Hmmmm..

The fact that you class everything as political, marks you out as an ideologue on the site. And you also consider yourself to be intellectually privileged, which is a tad rude really.

My sister never leaves the house without makeup, I pretty much never leave the house with it. We have never really discussed this, as we have more important stuff to worry ourselves about, like who's paying for lunch etc..

I don't really see the remark as misogynistic Sigmund - I thought garlic was just making the often made observation that everything, including the personal, is political ?

So, someone complaining about the discussion being made political was perhaps not showing such rigorous thinking about the topic ?

floaty the mascara ads are lies all of them. I'm amazed not every single one has been found to have a model wearing falsies in it to be honest. It's also a lie that mascara only lasts 3 months. A lie designed to part you from your money uncessarily.

I love mascara too but through trial and error I will only use 3 from the vast selection there is to choose from. Two of those I have never actually seen an advert for.

Nothing misogynistic in saying that someone who doesn't realise that politics are part of everything may not the world's most critical thinker. And I don't remember gender being mentioned, so how does misogyny come into it anyway? You can take it as an insulting comment, but not sexist.

I'm sorry, I don't really agree Juggling. I think garlic was making a clear assertion there. The personal is the political is a concept I am well aware of, and I call BS on it. It essentially means 'I have a grievance, I can't possibly be responsible for that grievance, someone else is'.

It's an avoidance of responsibility.

Thank you, Juggling & Annie.

Sigmund, I disagree that your context-free quotes illustrate a sexist insult. Considering I added "that's not necessarily a bad thing" and "female grooming and intelligence are mutually independent", I refute your accusation entirely.

No, Annie, garlic pointed out the demographic of MN and then made her comment. I believe it was a misogynistic comment, I have yet to be persuaded otherwise.

'Sigmund, I disagree that your context-free quotes illustrate a sexist insult.'

Unsurprising. I have nowt else to say, people can decide for themselves.

But since garlic was talking about women across the board, how can it be misogynistic to say one woman may be less intellectually critical than another woman?

I really should learn not to rise to your goading, Sigmund, but have just seen your last.

"The personal is political" because you can't avoid politics unless you live alone in some remote place. Naturally you're not likely to consider the social / psychological / hierarchical / economic/ etc ramifications of makeup-wearing while debating a second bottle over lunch with your sister. But you probably are aware of them on a background level, as you're also likely to recognise the carbon footprint of the wine, the status implicit in your choice of restaurant, the reasons why your wait staff were of a given nationality, etc, etc, etc.

You don't have to be constantly debating everything to be aware of it. This is not an abrogation of responsibility, it's life!

Just so you know about my personal responsibility to your posts, right now , I'm getting offline for a while.

I like the idea that the personal is political. I think you often see that in action on Mumsnet.

eg on the thread someone started recently whilst on a post-natal ward and pissed off at being visited/ hounded by a Bounty lady, then others shared their experiences with several sharing very serious upsetting incidents such as following bereavement, then someone else writes to the Trusts asking what policies and procedures they have in place to protect women at a vulnerable time, a Trust responds with plainly inadequate answers and we wait for further responses, and hey presto we have a fairly political piece of collaborative action going on, and a campaign to change things for the better for many women in one small way.

Ok, but what if people the Bounty lady and pictures? What if people had a great exerience? This is where your theory goes from being a good thing into oppressing others choices.

You (and I) just have to make a judgement on that don't we SF ?

After hearing many people's experiences we decide where we stand on something and go forward from there ?

Not read thread yet but I've also wondered about this. My sister very rarely wears it. I don't have the self confidence to go bare faced though. I feel I can't look people in the eye it's weird as I'm fairly confident otherwise. I do love all things makeup but sometimes wish I looked good enough to manage without it. I think I look ill without it on. Off to read fred now!

SF the idea is to offer choice and protection, say by telling the Bounty lady that she has to stay in the day room and be approached rather than leting her approach beds and use a hard sell tactic.

For make-up one of the decisions I'm making is that if I wear make-up every time I leave the house I'm collaborating in an impression that women aren't fully dressed unless they "have their face on". This then leads to insecure women and especially teenage girls deciding that they must wear make-up, even if they don't want to*.

If I leave the house confidently with no make-up every day then I'm collaborating in an image of women not needing to wear make-up if they don't fancy it. And I'd rather than the 5 minutes in bed/MNing. The personal and political are linked, and the actions of the whole society have an impact on the decisions individuals make.

• I am not saying that every woman who wears make-up is insecure, this is not a two-way argument.

How we dress and whether or not we wear make up is a personal choice.

I tend to wear a little because I am pregnant and tired right now and it makes me feel better. However, I don't feel I have to and my DH is aware what I look like without it (and still seems to love me!)

I think make up can be great/good fun etc but it is not essential and I think women judging each other for either wearing or not wearing it is very destructive.

There are so many reasons why we wear it and generalising is always dangerous.

I wore make-up while working full-time, as all the women did. It was just a part of life, as far as I was concerned. Then after meeting DH and marrying him and moving to another country to live in a very rural village, where nobody wore make-up, not even the teenagers. DH preferred me with no -make up and I would have felt out of place, and was only too pleased not to have to bother with the plastering on and cleaning off every day. I was liberated !!
Now I am older and lost my bloom of youth - when going out dancing, I do wear a radiance moisturiser, light blusher and natural looking lipstick, as I now really do need it, and don't want to look like "death warmed up" or an old crone. There are no men there just women, so it's just for me.
Couldn't be bothered with foundation, mascara, eye-liner and eye shadow.

'SF the idea is to offer choice and protection, say by telling the Bounty lady that she has to stay in the day room and be approached rather than leting her approach beds and use a hard sell tactic.'

I could go with that, or maybe offer the mums a time slot?

Well I have been up and down the high street twice today without make-up and both times I have hoped not to bump into anyone I know.

but it "makes you happy" that your daughter is now experimenting with make up? how depressing

My dd wants to study theatre make up as a career choice and loves experimenting with it. She is very clever and I am extremely proud.
Can I ask about scars and chemo because I've experience of both.
Dd2 has a large strawberry mark on her face and if it doesn't fade when she is older and and wishes to cover it I shall certainly support that.
I had chemo when I was on my twenties. So had no hair eyebrows or eyelashes ( or boobs!) self esteem was on the floor and false eyelashes a wig and make up helped enormously.
Yes I could have strutted about bald headed pasty and eyebrow less but it was better not to.
Still fake though should I have just been proud of my appearance even if it made me feel self conscious and crap

Do people actually look at other women and think "she'd look better with make up on?" Seriously?

Seeker, my ex sister in law did. She used to tell me so. And how to apply it. We once took our children swimming and she told me I needed to get a wax.

At my wedding my DH's cousins told me my make up looked really good. I wasn't wearing any and have never worn any. They absolutely point blank refused to believe that I had got married without make-up on. They had known me for nearly 10 years by that point so knew I really didn't wear it.

It was quite funny at the time to watch them try and get their heads round the idea that a woman could get married without make up on, but now I do wonder what sort of mind set that shows on their part.

garlic, I would rather be 'a less rigorous thinker' than a bore love. Sorry if I sound like an airhead but this is a thread about make up isn't it?

Some posters on here are only happy if they turn everything into a serious debate. To fit in you must bf exclusively and not contaminate your baby with formula, not let your dd dress in pink/play with 'girls' toys, not let a sweet pass their lips, certainly don't be a man pleaser or look like a man pleaser by dressing sexy, doing your hair or wearing make up.

Think I'd rather be an airhead bimbo.

I'm actuallu pretty bright and have a decent education but I think some of my porn star false eyelashes have worked their way into my brain and I can't think straight

Such a positive army of straw men!