worst situation due to landlord!! (any tenants' rights lawyers?)

[oinkyoink]

i am in such a bad situation and thought i would come on here for advice and opinions... we are renting our house since last february 2012 and the landlord mentioned it would be a long-term let which was great. as we had the contract for the first year feb 2012 to feb 2013 which was to be renewed annually with 8 weeks notice, we emailed the landlord in october 2012 to let him know we really wanted to stay in the house and avoid any last minute dramas of being given notice. my dd who is 3.5 will be starting reception in Sep 2013 and so I have just submitted her application based on this address.
what did the landlord do after replying in Oct to our email to say yes that would be fine to renew in Feb 2013 for another year? He called us on 20 Dec to say he had a last minute change of mind and needs his house back. (we had a great Christmas... not).
I have applied for my daughter's school based on this address and I am in a bad situation whereby the catchment for the school is extremely small and so we can only basically move along this road or along the road parallel to this one. We have approached the landlord to explain that we need to be here until end of May due to having to send proof of address after the school offers are made on 17 April. he replied to say sorry, he is not being unreasonable in wanting his home back and good luck with our daughter's schooling. How nasty can one person be? It is a crucial time for us as a family and he doesn't give a damn. I am not sure what to do now... He has said we can stay until end of March but this doesn't help. I have worked so hard at trying to get my daughter into a good school and I cannot give up now. Apart from the schooling issue, we are a young family with two children who have been upheaved out of their home. We do not have family in the UK. I am very stressed out as you can imagine.
Opinions appreciated.

Sorry no i got the monthly date we pay rent wrong so that is correct.

No we didn't tell them we would move out at the end of the tenancy. In fact they emailed us mid December 2012 to say the landlord wished to renew the tenancy for another year from end Feb 2013 at an increased rent which we were happy with. But when we put the condition to them that we wanted the landlord to so some drought proofing, we received the call from them saying they had put this to him and he now needed he house back. That was on 20th December. We emailed ll directly and managed to get an extra month and they then issued the memorandum of agr. That's it. So basically we could wait until near end March 13 and then say we haven't been given notice?

Is an s21 still required for a fixed term tenancy- one year in our case?

EllieArroway- I'm a Housing Officer for a local authority, so I'd like to thank you for being one of the people on here talking any sense!

I think the OP has been given enough relevant advice now about the best way forward with this, but I have to say that I'm a bit concerned about by the number of people who have had experiences of their local authority advising them that they will have made themselves intentionally homeless if they vacate before they are forcibly evicted by bailiffs.

In order to be found intentionally homeless, the property you were resident in must have been both 'suitable' and 'reasonable' to continue to occupy. Certainly, my LA's approach, and the current guidance from Shelter, is that once the S21 has expired, a property is unlikely to be considered reasonable to continue to occupy.

As such, I would suggest that anybody receiving homelessness assistance from the LA at this moment in time should seek support from Shelter if they've been told this.

Certainly, we always encourage people to stay in their property beyond the S21 (since it is their legal right to do so, but also because it gives us some much needed time to try and find another property) but we would NEVER find somebody IH for leaving after a S21 has expired! Before- yes, but after? No chance.

Is an s21 still required for a fixed term tenancy- one year in our case? Oh yes, absolutely.

So basically we could wait until near end March 13 and then say we haven't been given notice? Yep. You are completely within your rights to sit down, put your feet up and completely forget that any of the previous conversations/emails/memorandums took place. As of now, you have not actually been given notice to quit.

When March 13 comes around and they want to know when you're going, you say "Going? But I haven't received the S21 as required by law yet". Then watch them run around like headless chickens.

Your biggest problem is the reference - you do need that to rent somewhere else.

So, here's what you could do:

It gets to 13th March and you're still there. They realise they need to then give you 2 months notice which will require possession after 25th May. An S21 is NOT NOT NOT a notice to quit the property - it is a heads up from the landlord that he requires possession after a certain date and will take legal steps to get it if you remain. Of course, most people do go, but there's no obligation to do so.

Your landlord cannot end the tenancy by himself - only you or a judge can do that. So, the law allows you to stay put after the expiration of the notice & wait until such time as a judge ends the tenancy.

All of that takes quite a long time - at least a month to get before a judge (taking us to 25th or so of June), you'll be given 2 weeks notice by the judge to get out (so around mid-June) and if you STILL don't go, then bailiffs can be appointed to physically remove you and that will take at least another 4 weeks (rarely shorter, but usually much longer). This takes us to mid July-ish.

I am not suggesting you follow things through to the bitter end like that - but you COULD do, and it's entirely possible that, perfectly legally, you could stay in the property for another 6 months or so.

They won't be happy about this, so you could say:

"Dear Mr LL/Agent

As I am sure you are aware you were legally required to serve me with a Section 21 notice. You failed to do so, so it may be that I have no option but to exercise my LEGAL RIGHT to remain in the property until my tenancy is properly ended by a judge. However, I am willing to overlook this rather serious breach on your part and move out at a time mutually convenient to us both in return for a reference from you that properly reflects the exemplary way I have maintained my tenancy".

Or words to that effect.

Whether this is a path you want to pursue is up to you - but the fact remains that you can if you want to.

:)

Got my dates buggered up, sorry

Should read:

All of that takes quite a long time - at least a month to get before a judge (taking us to 25th or so of June), you'll be given 2 weeks notice by the judge to get out (so around mid-July) and if you STILL don't go, then bailiffs can be appointed to physically remove you and that will take at least another 4 weeks (rarely shorter, but usually much longer). This takes us to mid August-ish.

YABU. It's unfortunate for you but well within the legal rights of the LL.

Drip. drip. Er, hang on. OP put a condition upon renewing a tenancy now?

As in LL said he was happy to renew and tenant said no unless you do xyz. (I'm assuming xyz is an improvement rather than a needed repair otherwise OP wouldn't be so desperate to stay regardless.)

Why does the LL still need to give her written notice when the OP said she didn't want to renew under current conditions and would only renew if xyz was done? Isn't she terminating things? In which case I thought the LL didn't have to give her further written notice.

a massive gap that you can see through in the coldest part of winter seems like a necessary repair to me...?

TW

You'd think so - but no.

If it's a fixed term contract (as this is) the tenant can leave when it's up without issuing any notice to the LL. If the tenancy had become periodic, she'd have to give one month's notice then.

In all circumstances the LL, however, must give 2 clear months notice even when he just wants the property back at the end of the fixed term (except if it's an S8 situation for rent arrears). He can give this notice at any time during the fixed term provided it gives at least two clear months notice. He can, for example, give the S21 at the beginning of the tenancy so that when the fixed term is up he can apply immediately to the courts for eviction if the tenant remains.

I know it seems unfair that the LL has to give notice, but not the T, but it's the way it is.

And she's not drip feeding, actually. She's clarifying because of the questions I'm asking.

Oink To be very clear - if you wanted to you could leave on or before 25th Feb without worrying about giving notice (although you'd be liable for all rent up to that date even if you're not there). However, if you stay even one second into 26th Feb, then you will have entered periodic tenancy territory and would have to give your LL at least a months notice that must expire at the end of a rent period. Just thought you ought to be aware of that.

Ellie, my point is that I wonder if the OP did give notice by saying she is not renewing. Unless xyz. Which would explain why agents didn't forward anything further in writing from LL. Also, in practice what you describe about just staying til end of a contract without letting LL know whether you are staying or going just does not happen. If you mess people about - whether they're LL or tenants - they are either going to give you notice or a bad reference/reputation.

Also, in practice what you describe about just staying til end of a contract without letting LL know whether you are staying or going just does not happen Agreed. It doesn't. Most tenants let their LLs know. But there's no actual legal requirement for them to do so.

Notice can't be verbal, so no. It needs to be written & contain very specific dates - at least if it's going to be relied on in court, it does. In practice, of course, many LLs & their tenants don't bother with all the paperwork (although dumb is the LL who doesn't because it can come back so easily to bite her/him on the arse).

But I'm just trying to clarify for the OP exactly what the law does and does not say.

YANBU.
I really sympathise as we had something very similar happen last year - moved in when pregnant specifically for long term rent and then when baby only 3 months old we get served with 2 months notice.

Being given two months notice when you have a family is really hard. I know there are people who only care about the law on here but emotionally it's been difficult for me and my husband.

Ellie all your advice has been fantastic. Thank you for taking the time on here to write all you have.

It will be interesting to see if they are actually just preparing a s21 notice right now to serve us in preparation for the tenancy ending at at the end of March... If so, there is not much we could do without things getting messy!

Are you 100% sure you weren't served a Section 21 when you signed your lease? When we still rented we were served one annually at the same time we signed the new contract.

oinky, sorry to ask the same question as Felt, but are you sure you don't have a S21 in the paperwork you got when you started your tenancy? I have a friend who was renting and sure they hadn't been served notice, so 'put his feet up' so-to-speak, intending to wait until the final day of the tenancy and say to the LL "Oops, you haven't served me a S21" (as has been mentioned)... But then someone prompted him to check his original lease, and there it was. He ended up having to move in a massive hurry, rather than getting to plan and look for somewhere else he really liked... :(

It seems ridiculous that you could be served paperwork about leaving just as you're arriving, so it didn't occur to him to look; but that is what had happened... Just double-check you're not in the same situation!

Ill check the file I have in this tenancy. Thanks for the heads up. Ellie did mention earlier too, that notice can be given at the start. Will check.

I feel so sorry for you as we're going through something similar ourselves. I'd advise going to your local Citizen's Advice Bureau as well as your Council Housing Office (not that you'll get a house from them but they have professional people who will phone the landlord up and get them to serve a Section 21 notice if needed).

Unfortunately as a private tenant you have very little rights and a lot of landlords don't give a toss about the fact that's it's your HOME whilst your paying the rent. Don't get me wrong, we've been renting for 7 years and have come across good landlords but there really are some awful ones out there who really don't care about the repercussions their decisions can have on a family.

Our situation is as follows... We're a family of 6 (includes twins) and 2 of our children have special needs (one is Statemented). We've been in our current home for just 4 months after having to move from another private rental as landlord wanted to sell up. So we move in September 2012, pay for lots of blinds and curtains (as well as agency fees, deposit, moving costs etc.) and last week on 3rd Jan a registered letter arrives with a 'Section 21 Possession order' and brief covering letter explaining that they would like the house back by the end of March (it's owned by a well known superstore and I can't go into the reasons why they want it back but it's nothing to do with us as tenants). The house had stood empty for a couple of years before we moved in and they have two other empty properties round the corner.

So we're out on our ear and there's sod all we can do about it. Legally they're not doing anything wrong but it's a brutal system and highlights just what little rights private tenants have. We're also waiting for confirmation of our eldest DS's secondary school place and now we have to find the money up front for moving costs, rent in advance and another deposit. The last week has been absolute hell trying to find somewhere and wondering what to do as rentals are so high. Luckily we have managed to find another house but it's tiny and on the other side of town from DC's school. Ironically we've been on the Housing List for over 6 years now but they can't actually do anything to help unless you're chucked out on the street. Even more ironically they only allow us to 'bid' on 4 bed houses Local Authority houses (there aren't any) but all we can afford to rent in the private sector is a small 3-bed house EX-COUNCIL house even though my DH earns an above average wage!

All I can say is 'good luck' but I can relate to the stress you're going through - it's horrendous. There really is a housing crisis going in the UK and if you're stuck in it it's awful. No security whatsoever.

I was happy to read this today.... More than two months notice is definitely required for tenants! Especially when children are involved.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20996278

It's awful for you, but he's not doing anything wrong.
There may be something that has cropped up which means he needs his house back, surely you don't expect to take priority over his own issues.

If she's on a fixed term contract, then surely notice isn't required and the assumption is unless discussed otherwise, you move out when the contract is up

I've read other posts and I stand corrected.

Tell you what though, after reading all the advice on here for you OP (which is fab for you) I would never, ever become a landlord.

Even if you want your property back and give notice, your tenants can stay on for much much longer?

TravelinColour

The reason will probably be that students will pay more per house (£80 per bedroom per week is fairly common), they demand less, and they normally leave quietly at the end of a tenancy. This is because student tenancies run from 1st July to 30th June, so the students will either have another house to go to, or will be graduating and naturally moving on.

And not all students live in squalor

I hope ll is reading this and contacts agency on Monday to check 21 has been issued.

When we were renting we were always served with the S21 at the start of the tenancy, worth checking.

and yes, students are low effort actually, they don't tend to complain about stuff, they pay by the room so overall pay more, they often better look after a property than small DCs, they do usually only stay a year at a time and often the uni housing officers will help fill properties without the LL having to advertise it themselves. Oh, and once in, students tend to stay the whole year, not giving notice part way though - one in a house might drop out and want to leave early, but if the others don't, they don't all give notice, more the dropping out student continues to pay or finds someone themselves to take over the property. Far easier for the landlord all round.

Why don't you put your effort in to looking for a new house, rather than trying to screw over your landlord?

There is more than one school in the United Kingdom isn't there? You could go to all this effort to try and get a few months extra in a house (and ruin your chances for a decent reference) and end up miles away and having to find a new school anyway.