to use a donor egg and an Indian surrogate to have a child (long)?

[2aminthemorning]

I'm in my thirties and in a wheelchair since a pregnancy damaged my pelvis. We have a daughter of 18 months old. DH has a good job and we have a pleasant quality of life. I care for DD with the help of a lovely girl from the village.

DH adores babies/children and is born to be a dad. We had always hoped to have a good size of a family. Before I became disabled, we'd been seriously considering leaving the UK to work in an orphanage in India alongside some friends who are already there, with the intention of starting a smaller sister orphanage in a neighbouring region. We'd assumed that we'd probably end up adopting as a result of that.

Now we're in a position where it would be a huge risk to have another child. Even egg retrieval is not advised. We've been told that we would probably not be passed as adoptive parents either, because of my disability. That was a blow.

Regarding surrogacy...I wouldn't be comfortable about not paying for it - it would be the least we could do. And if we were to enter into such a surrogacy arrangement, we'd rather do so with a surrogate who is going to find the money very helpful in her life (i.e. start a small business, pay for education etc.). We came across a clinic in India that is known as a gold standard for medical ethics and talked to the director about the welfare of the women in her care. She was very positive about the practical impact of surrogacy on the lives of the women she'd worked with.

Regarding the donor egg, I see the pitfalls (emotional work for the child to process as he/she grows up, lack of information about egg donor, potential strain in the family dynamic). I'm sure there are more. Not to diminish them, but surely those negatives wouldn't outweigh the significance of being alive in a loving family.

Is this whole idea unreasonable?

So you know their names and addresses? They're going to be traceable when your DC turns 18? I highly doubt that. The law in India requires donors to be anonymous.

Please don't believe everything the clinic tells you, fertility clinics will lie through their teeth to get your custom are famously slippery.

Somebody further up the thread recommended contacting Natalie Gamble, I have met her, she is lovely and really knows her stuff. Please do contact her, and the Donor Conception Network (of which she is a member).

You cannot adopt from overseas without first being approved in the UK either my a local authority or a voluntary adoption agency

"From the start, we knew that adopting from abroad was our only option if we wanted a baby or toddler. Because of our ages ? Harry was 59 when we started the process, and I was 41 ? our local authority would not allow us to have an infant."

But I'm off to bed now!

Which is exactly what I said! They wouldn't be offered a baby (that's what infant means). They would be approved to adopt an older child.

Consider reading 'And then there were three' by Ian Mucklejohn. It covers all the legal problems involved with surrogacy abroad.

Just find this on an Indian surrogacy website: "Egg donation in India is anonymous. You will not be able to meet your egg donor or be given any identifying information about her other than her photo, occupation, and donation history." So the donor will not be traceable i.e. she will be anonymous.

A close friend of mine is a surrogate, she has had three successful surrogacies and is planning her fourth at the moment.

I think she is amazing and I am in awe of the amazing gifts that she has given people. So much so that I myself am now seriously considering becoming a surrogate.

My friend has had personal dealings with clinics in India, so she would be better to talk to about it but even the ?best? most ethical clinics are not what most westerners would consider good.
I know you sat that you have spoken with them and done research but do you actually know how it all works?

Even in the best clinics women who ?volunteer? to become surrogates are not in the same position that European surrogates are, they are poverty stricken, often widows who have been left with no other way to support their family. During the surrogacy the women have to live in shared accommodation at the clinic, leaving their children to be looked after by family for the whole pregnancy, to ensure that the ?investment? is protected.
After the surrogacy the women are give only a percentage of the fee that the parents pay, which is still a life changing amount for these women, but is only a small portion of the fee that the parents actually pay to the clinic.

My friend has been out to India and visited these clinics and met with the women and she was heartbroken by what she learned while out there.

I think you have your whole idea of British surrogates wrong, have you actually spoken to any of them?
Because I can tell you of all of the surrogates that I have met I don?t think I would describe any of them as ?very fragile? ?vulnerable? or ?lonely?.

Surely a photo means it isn't completely anonymous*? Not directly traceable, but not completely anonymous either?!

oops I bolded the wrong word!

Sorry, just found this.

And I was made a mistake in that last post - it is not the law that specifies egg donors must be anonymous, it is the Indian Council of Medical Research. Just to be clear.

Untraceable is to all intents and purposes anonymous. If you never get to meet the donor how would you know the photo was accurate anyway?

Ooh, I'm getting tired, that last but one post should've said "And I made a mistake in that last post - it is not the law in India that specifies egg donors must be anonymous, it is the Indian Council of Medical Research."

If I did something I was told was going to be anonymous I really wouldn't expect my photo to be included.

You wouldn't know the photo was accurate of course, but the idea of a photo of an anonymous donor seems very odd to me.

Do you get a photo of donors in the UK?

No italics?! "And I made a mistake in that last post - it is not the law in India that specifies egg donors must be anonymous, it is the Indian Council of Medical Research."

You do not get photos of donors in the UK. As I understand it, their identity is verified by the clinic - they have to show photo ID and proof of address - and then their name and address is sent to the HFEA. The HFEA will then release this information to any resulting offspring when they turn 18 if they want it. Remember this law was only introduced in 2005, so the first offspring affected by it won't turn 18 until 2023 - nobody has met this way yet.

OP (since you mentionned adoption, I also would not mention this otherwise), obviously if you've fostered before i guess you may definitely know that your local council (or VA) won't approve you with your disability. However, if you feel able to approach any other agencies, maybe you are eligible to adopt fron a neighbouring council or a VA you are in catchment for. My LA and other ones will and have approved people who are in wheelchairs (permanently), who have cystic fibrosis and other serious conditions etc.

And to others, yes, you absolutely must be approved by UK authorities before adopting from abroad. I believe this law was (very rightly) brought in after that case where those parents got two American twins for a large sum of money in horrid circumstances, then UK SS had to take the children away from them (and send them back to the US). Horrid case. Anyway, in addition to this, the countries from which people adopt are often 3rd world countries, and disabled people are often discriminated against in those countries, so disabled adoptive parents may well be forbidden from adopting from many countries. Remember, you have to be approved/accepted by 2 countries not just 1 when you adopt from abroad. Contrary to daily mail opinion, there is therefore a huge amount of paperwork and beurocracy involved in international adoption, quite a bit of which does not exist in UK adoption.

P.S. Clinics in the UK get inspected by the HFEA to make sure they are following the rules. There is no equivalent to the HFEA in India.

Zoo - I have attempted donor insemination in the UK (I didn't get pregnant) and I was not permitted to know any identifying donor information, nor can you have photographs. I knew some things like physical characteristics, hobbies etc, plus a written piece about why he wished to donate etc. Only the child (at 18) would be told the name

eta - only if the child wished of course, they would have to contact the HFEA for that info

this all reminds me a bit of this film

I have no problems with surrogacy, providing all is ethical and above board, a person from the same country is probably the best option as at least human rights/mother/womans and child's rights are more likely to be upheld. I have a huge problem with a 'shop' fronted under a vaneer of pseudo professionalism such as a 'clinic' from India. Flesh trade is flesh trade however it is dressed up. Fact is one will never get the full story behind the woman donor, she is not going to say yes my husband makes me, reasons will be kept quiet, no ethical standards or legislation for agancies to circumnavigate, well not until the child is brought to uk.

This topic of conversation is very emotive non?

I hope that anyone considering using a woman from other parts of the world purely because its easier to do (red tape etc) for surrogacy would be VERY thorough in researching the right woman, take time to get to know her (she is going to carry YOUR child after all) and generally treat her with respect, somehow I find it hard to believe that this would be the reality of the matter though.

Ps I can empathise op with your plight, I hope that you and your dh have success in your hope for another child. I can appreciate your dilemma and wish you luck for your family's future.

I think that many posters have given very level-headed arguments and provided important information about legalities, support from the DCNetwork on what is a highly emotive subject.

OP- I really feel for you. Infertility is devastating. Due to very premature menopause, DH and I didn't even get to try for a family: I have no eggs left. DD was conceived via known egg donation (my beautiful sister offered to donate way before I'd even got my head around options). I know we were fortunate to have this offer and for it to work.

We (my DH, DSis and I) have been very clear from the outset that DD will know how she came to be and we are all committed to being honest and supportive of questions she will inevitably have. If I'm honest, I do sometimes worry about how I will cope if she struggles with this information. However it's not about me. Having a child needs to be about any would-be children. I know it's seemingly unfair that fertile people can have a child 'easily' but it's a fact of infertility that we have to put our needs to one side and seek to find a way forward that keep our children's best interests at heart. I believe that the 'not knowing' because a surrogate/donor is anonymous is potentially harmful to any would be child.

Alexander- I agree with what you've said wholeheartedly.

Now, and I mean this kindly, but could the desire to pay someone to donate and then another person to surrogate stem from wanting to feel that you've entered a 'business' arrangement so that you don't have to deal with what perhaps are uncomfortable truths? Is your fear of a British surrogate being needy because you may have to have such a surrogate involved in your family's life? I may be way off the mark here but I'm sensing that you feel using a surrogate in India may be justified as you perceive good things will happen for both parties. And I have typed the word 'using' as the behaviour of the clinics in India is abhorrent. I should imagine that it would be difficult to tell an honest version of this story to any would be child in a way that didn't sound rather grubby.

Please consider options in the uk. There are very strict guidelines governed by the HFEA and it is my understanding that most reputable clinics insist on implications counselling for both parties prior to commencing treatment.

YANBU to want a second child. Of course you're not. But YABU to consider this as a path.

Disclaimer: Sorry if I haven't expressed myself brilliantly. It's a very emotive subject but one that I have some experience in and have researched.

Thanks Lilka, I was hoping you'd come along, that's interesting.

Louis Please read Lilka's post and if you need more information seek it out. Remember that a number of the people commenting here have been through adoption themselves and have not got their information from a mis-read/misunderstood article in the Daily Mail. We do not have a system whereby people deemed not suitable to adopt in the UK are then allowed to adopt from abroad as if those children don't matter as much as British ones.

okay

Number one. Never put this type of decision "out there". You are going to find a whole heap of responses from people who are incredibly loud and naive. Keep it between you and your close family only.

Keep it to yourself and DO WHAT YOUR HEART TELLS YOU TO. Why ask a bunch of strangers? All you will get are people who seem to want to be holier than thou. Do they walk in your shoes? No. So don't ask them. It's like starting a debate on politics.

I know exactly the clinic you are referring to - it is a shame that the loud mouths here who have served you out don't know the clinic. If they did, they wouldn't be typing such nonsense. These women are hardly exploited. They are all middle class women who see surrogacy as a form of well paid work. Why do women assume that ALL Indian women must be half wits and allow themselves to be exploited? I had to laugh reading some of the posts. Many Indian women are highly intelligent and are extremely capable of making their own decisions...

Why should you use a British surrogate? Why should you donate to an orphanage? Stupid and naive suggestions. Why should you adopt when you can have a genetically linked child through your husband as a couple? A lot of adopted kids have all sorts of health problems themselves... the road you want to go down will give you a baby that is hopefully free of medical problems.

Go ahead and do it. They have excellent rates, excellent fees and you will be holding a baby in your arms well before the arguments have stopped on this thread... The treatment is out there. Some people won't like it and some will use it. It's not for people to judge.

Don't bother trying to justfiy your plan. It's a VERY sensible option for someone in your shoes. Pursue it and get on with your family. You have had your first taste of how people will react, so my suggestion is to find like minded people and stay away from this lot (well some of them anyway).

Goodluck x Just do it :-)
and bugger the "politically correct"....

A very interesting first post on Mumsnet catdog2013

Is it perhaps the case that you work for one of these clinics?

I find these indian baby factory surrogacy clinics very morally disturbing and I haven't seen the documentary or read much about it. Just the idea does not sit right with me. I feel very sorry for you that you can't have the size of family that you would like, but you don't have the right to exploit another human being just to get what you want. Perhaps it is better to come to terms with what you do have, or find a different option. If you want to pursue surrogacy then you should do it in the UK and not take advantage of poorer people from abroad.