Interesting - Bus Company on wheelchair/Pram spaces..

[Bathsheba]

Yes -that old chestnut.

The Chair of the NCT has posted a letter on her facebook page (and has asked for it to be shared so I doubt any problems with doing this) from a bus company's solicitor - the bus company are being accused of being disabalist in not insisting that parents fold down prams/Get off etc. I've posted the info from the bus company below and will happily post a link to this thread on the facebook page as they have been asked to garner as many opinions as possible.

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I write further to our recent telephone conversation. As I explained, we are solicitors acting for Arriva North East Limited, which runs bus services in the North East. Arriva is currently involved in a court case brought by a number of disabled passengers. They are alleging that Arriva has discriminated against them because of its policy on use of the wheelchair space by parents with buggies. The court case is very important as it is likely to decide how wheelchair spaces in buses and trains across the UK can be used in future. Arriva?s policy is that drivers will ask parents with buggies to fold them down if a wheelchair user wishes to board the bus, but if parents cannot fold down the buggy or refuse to do so, they will not be forced to. Arriva believes that its policy is in line with the government guidelines and aims to minimise conflicts between passengers by striking a balance between the competing rights of parents with young children and disabled people to use the wheelchair space. The people bringing the claim have proposed various changes to this policy, to ensure that wheelchair users have absolute priority over the space ? the proposed changes are listed below. Arriva is obviously concerned about the impact of these proposed changes on parents of young children and their ability to use public transport. Arriva has been given until 28 January 2013 to gather evidence on the potential impacts of these changes. We would be very interested in hearing your members? views and experiences on the practical impact of the proposed changes on parents of young children. I would be very grateful if your members could respond directly to me with their views by 18 January 2013.

Proposed changes:-

1. Prohibit prams on board
2. Get drivers to ask passengers to fold down their buggies before they board the bus.
3. Get drivers to warn passengers each time they board the bus that they will have to fold their buggies and/or vacate the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board.
4. Offer passengers with buggies onwards tickets if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.
5. Refuse access to buggies, prams and pushchairs which cannot be folded.
6. Refuse to continue the bus journey until the passenger with the buggy moves from the wheelchair space.
7. Insist the passenger with the buggy leaves the bus if a wheelchair user wishes to board and buggy cannot be folded down.

Kind regards,
Adam
Adam Hedley
Solicitor
(contact details follow but I thought best to remove them - Bathsheba)

Most people have been a parent with a pram though, surely, even those of us who aren't now?

I was, and I folded my pushchair on buses.

It seems such a no brainer to me.

Did you really just say that there used to be fewer disabled people?

4 and 6 sound fine to me.

I've used buses with several DC and having the option of getting on buses with pushchairs up is great - but I would and have always moved for wheelchairs or other things.

I'm not sure it's a mother vs disabled thing though.

I had experience of getting wheelchair with DH in and with DC alongside on buses. Maybe it was having the DC alongside but the other mothers moved quickly and offered help and it was the abled bodied who got in the way and moaned. Though I?ve had normal journeys and met other parents who?ve made things difficult and harder though inconsideration so obviously know they are out there.

You'd have to take into account the special pushchairs - for disabled DC - which can look like pushchairs and fact some DC aren?t immediately obviously disabled. Perhaps a pass or something to show drivers ? so they wouldn?t have to explain every time or discuss their DC medical conditions with strangers?

Thinking about the blue badge priority - that would ensure that parents with mobility problems who manage prams (yes that does happen) are not thrown off at a random stop, right?

But entitled arseholes (obviously more common) would have no argument.

I'm not missing the point at all, I'm saying you don't know why a pushchair might be in the wheelchair space. It may have shown a blue badge when it got on, if you are sat at the bus stop in your wheelchair you only see a pushchair preventing you getting on.

but there were also fewer disabled people and they also would have benefitted from local shops and hospitals.

No dear, they were all locked up, seen and not heard.

Perhaps your name should have come from Oryx and Crake, Offred, rather than The Handmaid's Tale.

When I was a baby pushchairs got hung off the back of buses from hooks.

Some days I think we should go back to that!

Not refusing to accept "my view", refusing to acknowledge that is a proposal which just solves the problem... I've asked several times what the problem is with it, one person said it would cost money, arriva has done it here, why not be expected to do it in the north east?

That is such a selective scenario and is not the primary point people are arguing with you about.

Or do you now agree that parents should jut fold the buggy up and you sole remaining query is how we identify buggies for children with SN ?

Err no they weren't all locked up twenty years ago, how ridiculous! My aunt has been working for longer than twenty years!!

A few dickheads are making this into a much bigger issue than it needs to be. If mothers (and it is inevitably women) followed the rules about when to use a wheelchair space, and didn't act like complete martyrs because they have more kids than they can handle and it's raining and they're constipated and they have a phobia of cows and and and WOE IS FUCKING ME MY LIFE IS SO HARD! then there wouldn't be a problem.

Your issue here should not be with disability rights campaigners who are asking for what is fair, it should be with entitled parents who can't see beyond their own tiny bubble.

Yes, we are back to the "exceptions" because if you make a rule then it has to apply to everyone...

I explained why a pram space would actually be less helpful for parents up there if you want to read it. (short hand, more expensive, can't implement straight away and you would have less buggy space and less flexibility)

45% of OAPs are disabled. Given increases in life expectancy, it would be surprising if there were not vastly more people with disabilities nowadays. Also advances in neonatal care mean that babies with SN have a better chance of surviving.

Would be interesting to see stats.

X-posted.

If it helps I on't ave any problem with parents campaigning for pram spaces. Great idea. Good luck to them. I am sure the disabilities campaigners that got accessibility rights nd heel chair spaces also wish them well

But in the meantime they should fold their buggy up.

The point is that what they are asking for is not fair, they aren't asking for access to buses they are asking to restrict other people's access to buses.

How do you tell the difference between a child with disabilities in a pushchair, it isn't easy to see.

Well if it's a disability which isn't visible I am sure the parents would be able to say "sorry, he is disabled so can't sit in a normal chair"

That certainly isn't a justification for letting everyone leave prams up!

They aren't, they are asking for people to be sensible and make space to let wheelchairs on by folding their prams. If they refuse to do that then they have to get off. What's the issue?

No, they are asking to have access to a space that is designed for them.

It is a wheelchair space. It is for disabled people. It is not for someone who has a toddler and twins and doesn't want to get wet.

Nice, so people with disabled children have to be humiliated, anyone could say their child has a disability whether they do or not.

X - posted again.

So you do agree that wheelchair spaces should be for wheelchair users and those with disabilities. You are just questioning how to identify buggies for children with disabilities?

It isn't disability campaigners btw, it is a group of wheelchair users. They don't really care about the legion of disabled who don't use a wheelchair or parents of disabled children who use a pushchair.

Just to point out to the person who keeps bleating about a special space for the pram, that doesn't stop the entitled tosser people taking the wheelchair space and refusing to fold.

The buses here have a space either side of the bus. One is a wheelchair space and the other is a space for two prams with the parents standing (or a row of fold up seats for when there's no prams on).. What we get now is three prams piling on and no wheelchair space. Or one pram taking up the entire pram space with the adult taking the other spot by sitting. When another pram tries to get on they refuse to stand so the other person has to wait or take the wheelchair spot. The other week I was on (without LO luckily or id have been waiting another hour since the luggage rack was full of granny trolleys), and there were three prams on, all non folding unless you take them apart, aisles blocked too. What would have happened if a wheelchair user needed to get on?

Even with pram spaces there are still entitled tossers who think they own the bus and the only way it will be solved is not by giving more pram spaces but by educating people in manners and common sense!