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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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to think some people are just born evil?

227 replies

themomentsinbetween · 29/12/2012 16:49

Do you think some people are born bad?

Or is it there surroundings and people in their lives that make them bad.

For example, Thompson and Venables, were they just born bad?

Charles Manson?

Harold Shipman?

Good people don't just have a bad day and start killing people.

OP posts:
Valdeeves · 29/12/2012 22:57

I think your thread should have been called "Why are some people just so goddamn snotty on mumsnet?"
I don't have the answer for you but at least you posted something that want about a MIL.

MoreCrackThanHarlem · 29/12/2012 23:07

'I believe that the children that murdered James Bulger knew and understood that he was crying because they were beating him. They just didn't care.'

I agree. They were devoid of empathy, probably due to their home environment and exposure to graphic violence and possibly pornography.

I still think, that as 10yo children, they deserved a chance of rehabilitation. I am glad I live in a society where this is the case.

MaryChristmaZEverybody · 29/12/2012 23:17

I think that's where we differ in our opinions Outraged.

I think they were dispassionately curious about what would happen, in the same way as untaught small boys might tear the wings off flies and laugh as they watch them staggering around in circles.

If someone had taken the time to explain to those boys about hurt, they might well not have done it. Instead they were brought up to watch violent films and play violent games, and their imaginations made poor Jamie just another figure in those games.

I don't believe either of them had the emotional capacity to think "we are going to torture this child to death, his parents will cry at his funeral". I really don't.

Of course, I don't really know. I wasn't there. I can only guess from what I have read.

Either way, my sympathies lie 100% with Jamie and his parents. But (and this is a big but) those boys are not entirely to blame. Their upbringing, their backgrounds, their lack of support and understanding must also be blamed. And for that I blame society, which failed them as well as him.

Alisvolatpropiis · 29/12/2012 23:21

Morecrack

One has been rehabiltated hasn't he? Or I sincerely hope he has. I remember reading he had a job,a girlfriend and a baby.

The other one is or at least was,back in prison. Child pornography and being a danger to himself. As in,he couldn't be trusted to not tell people who he really was.

OutragedFromLeeds · 29/12/2012 23:26

'I don't believe either of them had the emotional capacity to think "we are going to torture this child to death, his parents will cry at his funeral". '

I think there is a difference between emotinal capacity/empathy and social knowledge.

I agree that they didn't have the emotional capacity to empathise with him or his parents, but I don't think this means they didn't understand that what they were doing was wrong or that his tears were a result of their actions in that moment.

I punch him = he cries, I kick him = he cries more, crying = sad/hurt/upset. That's social knowledge.

Your DS not understanding why the others were crying is not the same as knowing and doing it anyway.

If those boys truly had no concept that what they were doing was wrong or no understanding of the cause and effect relationship between hurting him and him being hurt they should never have been convicted. That's why we don't convict the mentally ill or very young children.

Moominsarescary · 29/12/2012 23:27

I'm sure they had psychologists to determine if they understood what they had done. I'm also glad that we give children a chance of rehabilitation, although it doesn't seem to have worked for venables

Alisvolatpropiis · 29/12/2012 23:28

Venables has gone to prison again.

garlicbaubles · 29/12/2012 23:29

Some people are born with faulty 'wiring' which makes them incapable of empathy, or incapable of caring, or incapable of compassion however you define that.

There is no definite evidence on whether such people are also shaped by their environment. Current opinion is that people who do 'evil' things and don't care were both born with an abnormality and subjected to dis-compassion in their early years.

I don't believe in evil. I do believe that some people should have limited contact with the rest of society because of potentially dangerous abnormalities. I do not believe any child should be branded 'evil'.

Alisvolatpropiis · 29/12/2012 23:32

That wasn't in reply to you Moomins I'd mentioned them earlier and couldn't remember which one was in prison now.

I am glad to live in a country where people like Thompson and Venables are at least given the chance to be rehabilitated. But by the same token it's such an emotive issue too every time I think about it I feel differently.

OutragedFromLeeds · 29/12/2012 23:32

' I do believe that some people should have limited contact with the rest of society because of potentially dangerous abnormalities'

even if they've never done anything violent/aggressive? Just the potential is enough? Do you write for the Daily Mail?

Moominsarescary · 29/12/2012 23:45

Potentially dangerous abnormalities? How will decide what that is?

You might as well say bring back institutions.

Moominsarescary · 29/12/2012 23:47

Who will decide what a potentially dangerous abnormality is? That should say

sunshine401 · 29/12/2012 23:53

I don't get that ?

rainbow2000 · 30/12/2012 00:13

I think James Bulgers killers knew exactly what they were doing they had ample oppurtunity to get him some where safe and they didnt.Also i think people have a hard time in believing people are capable of some of the most disgusting things ever imagined but they are.

Plus a lot of serial murders arent solved so they are very intelligant and only get caught over something stupid,they very rarely get caught in the act.

Peter Sutcliffe was questioned 3 times and got away with it,he was caught cause some police officer became suspicious and found the hammer.

Plus they are charm personified so thye actually charm the people who should know better.I dont knoe if they are born evil or not but percentages wise they would have to be really.

Sparrowp · 30/12/2012 03:02

Its the environment. Even in the womb, if the mother is in a stressful environment and has more stress hormones, it is a signal to the baby of the environment it is being born into. I think this means genes are activated/dormant in response to suit the harsher environment.

I wonder if the children in the Bulger case were just passing on what they had learned from their environment, because it was normal to them.

That explains why good rehabilitation reduces rates of reoffending. Putting people in a positive environment means they respond differently, with different genes being activated or dormant.

digerd · 30/12/2012 11:38

So, being a sadist - enjoying inflicting pain on others is not a genetic trait?

skratta · 30/12/2012 11:49

I think serial murders can be quite intelligent, but according to my best friend (defense criminal lawyer, has been on a few murder cases in the Old Bailey, also was unfortunate enough to have been on a jury for a murder case- must be horrifying to do that) murderers are usually quite stupid, or at least its not thought through.

I think child murderers are incredibly different to adult murderers. I'm fairly sure no child murderer is actually evil- a product of a bad enviroment (it makes me sick thinking about the abuse both of them suffered), or maybe even mental health issues, or being pushed too far, but I think it must take a lot to make a child murder- most children would be playing football, or with their friends having fun, or riding their bike, and something must have twisted them into doing it. Adult murderers are different, because, unless they have mental health issues, or mental difficulties, they have more of a control over their life. Children can be abused, pushed and forced, but, to a large extent, adults have a larger control over their life (of course this isn't always true) and also have a larger control over their reactions.

insancerre · 30/12/2012 13:00

skratta, but don't you think that the adult murderers have been through the same experiences as the child murderers? They will not have the control over their lives if their brains have been hardwired to act in certain ways. Which is what the environment does to developing brains from before birth and for a few yeras afterwards.
I don't see any difference between people who murder as a child and those who murder as adult except age.

Nancy66 · 30/12/2012 13:13

who remembers this case

www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/sep/03/doncaster-torture-case-brothers

those responsible behaved in a truly sick, twisted and evil way to the extent it is hard to feel any sympathy. However they did have the most horrendous childhoods. they weren't born evil but, I guess, a decade of being raised with no love, no respect, no care - just abuse and violence will take its toll.

Moominsarescary · 30/12/2012 13:23

Well sadism is a behavioural disorder so doesn't have to be genetic, it is likely to be a learnt behaviour.

skratta · 30/12/2012 13:36

Not necessarily.

For instance, my friend was abused as a child (sexually, as well as physically and emotionally). She now goes to therapy and counselling. She is struggling, is bad at developing relationships, is quite introverted but at the same time is desperate to please (maybe a kind of defence mechanism as a child? Pleasing your parents might make them love her?). She has suffered a lot, and is still a really good friend, but she has more control over her life now. She has no family to support her, so I've been to a number of counselling/therapy sessions with her (most are 1:1, but especially in therapy they seem to want her to bring someone to rely on/feel familiar with). I can't believe she's gone through it, it makes me feel so angry- my friend also deals with anger problems (mostly self-harm, she doesn't hit out she hits herself).

A child has no chance of therapy or counselling. Often they are living through the abuse, not the issues of after abuse. An adult murderer will be dealing with the past- an abusive past, which is hard, challenging, emotional and difficult, and leads to so many feelings and problems- but a child will be right in the thick of it, you could say. They have no way out. They'll be coming home to be hit or sexually abused or any number of things, and they can't escape.

I think the difference of age means a difference in dealing. There's also a large difference in people. Like I explained above, my friend had a problem with self-harm (although she doesn't do this now, I think, she still has a tendency to self blame and to hate herself- she has terrible self-confidence, and doesn't think anyone can really like/love her) by turning the pain and anger she suffers, and in turn needs to release, onto herself- a way of almost 'punishing' herself for what's happened- she can blame her parents obviously, and is starting to manage that, but blaming your parents is actually a very hard thing to do, to be able to say to someone 'I hate my parents. They made me suffer. They're not right. They're wrong. I was just a defenceless child, and they abused me.' She wants to blame someone, and the easiest victim, especially after years of being told how terrible, ugly, wrong, needy etc; she is by her parents, is herself.

Other people might turn outwards, and direct their pain and anger onto someone else- I think that's why children who watch one of their parents suffer domestic abuse are more likely to abuse their partner (this is more common in boys, and girls are normally more likely to become a victim, so learned behaviour, but it also works the other way round as girls either follow their mother if she is the abuser, or attempt to 'fight back' for their mother by abusing someone- a lot of children who witness domestic abuse obviously do not become abusers, most of them probably won't, but it's one of the possible results)- they can blame someone else, hate someone else, turn all their pain onto someone else.

How can a child realistically speak out? SS obviously, sometimes they can be taken into care, but a child who is being abused and not spotted will have no real way to direct their anger or pain safely. I remember as a child (non-abused) that when I was angry, I'd punch my pillow or my bed or squeeze something really hard. That was normal teenage anger. What would I have done if I had proper, difficult pain and anger stemming from being abused? Where I could get rid of the hurt and other emotions?

Adults can vent more safely- they can speak out, they will be heard, most aren't being abused at that time. Can children really do that? Being in the thick of abuse can never be the same as after the abuse, and the effects are terrible, hard, difficult and emotional (as I said before), but different.

^^ Is all stuff I've gleaned from my friend/my opinions/going to the therapy/counselling with her. Of course, my friend could be different, but the therapist doesn't seem to think so. I might be wrong obviously as I'm lucky to have no direct experience of abuse.

aladdinsane · 30/12/2012 14:38

'wiring' takes place during early development
Children are not born fully 'wired' so no-one is born with faulty wiring
The human brain is the most underdeveloped at birth of all the species
Wiring, or neurodevelopment,takes place according to early experiences

grimbletart · 30/12/2012 15:06

Be interesting to know what the background etc. was of the six charged yesterday with the murder of the Indian student.

You wonder what would make six different men gang rape a girl they did not know for an hour, beat her with an iron bar, then ram a car jack handle up her, pulling out her intestines.

Clearly they were not over endowed with empathy.

So what sort of background could have engendered such hate that they behaved like a pack of wild creatures? Cultural misogyny, poverty, personal bad experiences in their families etc?

I would be surprised if we do not at some point find a mixture of genes governing our innate tendencies towards empathy (lack of), compassion (lack of), violence (lack of) etc. After all, we have no difficulty in believing that a mixture of genes causes hair colour, eye colour, a proportion of intelligence etc.

Then add the environmental factors - abusive, controlling etc. background and you have what is commonly described as 'evil'.

Personally I have no difficulty describing these men as evil. It would be statistically unlikely that they were all psychopaths. But were they born evil? Doubt it. There must have been some trigger..

garlicbaubles · 30/12/2012 15:28

no-one is born with faulty wiring

Would you say that about autistic people, aladdin? Or people with other 'filtering' disorders; sensory, cognitive and/or emotional?

Personality disorders are, likewise, 'filtering' impairments. There are as many different expressions of life experience as there are individuals. Each one is the unique outcome of the individual's genes and experience combined.

amillionyears · 30/12/2012 15:39

Agree garlic.

The bible says that some people are sons of the evil one.
That there is no truth in them.