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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

to think some people are just born evil?

227 replies

themomentsinbetween · 29/12/2012 16:49

Do you think some people are born bad?

Or is it there surroundings and people in their lives that make them bad.

For example, Thompson and Venables, were they just born bad?

Charles Manson?

Harold Shipman?

Good people don't just have a bad day and start killing people.

OP posts:
skratta · 29/12/2012 22:02

I'm not sure, but I think psychopaths can't really be evil. Surely a psychopath is someone who commits atrocities like murder etc; without empathy- although possibly with intent, because they were born without the ability to have empathy, then they can never be called 'evil' (which I define as committing things like torture, murder, etc; with intent and as sane).

If, as many people, define it like me, that evil is with intent and also the ability to go against human emotion and empathy, then being 'born evil' is an oxymoron. If you were born without empathy for human beings, and are psychopathic, then, although doing the crimes with intent, you cannot truly understand the extent of your actions (so a sane 'evil' person would be able to understand, emphasise and know what pain the person they're doing something to is feeling, but go against it- someone with no empathy might understand it is happening but not be able to truly emphasise with the person) and cannot be considered 'evil'.

I feel all a bit mixed up about this (illness, just got back from a 14hr flight, children...). It's so hard to understand how anybody can ever do this. It's hard for me to understand how someone with agoraphobia feels for instance, I know what it is, and I can try and grasp at the feeling of having it, but I will never understand it. Evilness, or, let's just say for a moment here, lack of empathy, is hard to understand.

I can't and probably won't ever be able to imagine what a psychopath feels, how they see the world. I see the world in my way, and I see the world, like many people, with empathy.

Empathy seems inescapable- sometimes you don't realise it, but you always have it. I watch the news about Syria, and see children escaping from the fighting, and imagine what it must be like- try to imagine- and I don't even make myself emphasise or think about it, I feel sad for them, feel angry how it could happen and many other things.

I donate to charities for the homeless because when I hear about it, my mind jumps to how I think I would feel if I lost my house, was dependent on the council, was in a cramped room maybe, dealing with forms and laws and everything, trying to pay for necessities and realising I couldn't afford things which I take for granted now- washing machines, new clothes, nice food like desserts, presents for the children. Even helping someone with a pram up the steps in the train station requires empathy- a woman came up to me yesterday when I was taking the train to the airport, and said 'Sorry, I don't have children, so you might be fine, but do you need any help with that pram?' No children (although probably has experience of smalller siblings, maybe even nephews or nieces, or other children, although not necessarily) and she looked at me struggling with the pram (DH wasn't there unfortunately, and DC too young to help me) and thought 'she looks like she needs help' which is impossible to think unless you would look at me and feel sad or wonder what it would be like struggling with all of that. Although a tiny problem, empathy is still required.

So I find it hard to understand a person without empathy. I find it hard to think a sane person can be 'evil' too. I'm still not sure a sane person could ever murder anyone. Not psychopathy, nothing ever like that, but I would find it hard to murder someone. However, I've had a very nice life- I had a bad relationship with my mother as a child, and my father died- but I was never abused, hurt or anything. I wouldn't describe it as 'nice', but I was never pushed to anything close to murder. If I was abused by my mother, as quite a headstrong, quite impatient (even now unfortunately, although as an adult I've obviously controlled this!) and easily pushed person, would I have? I honestly think not- but by 'thinking' this, I'm trying to equate another, very alien, experience, with my own, which is impossible.

I think every human will see a scenario and put their own experience, life and self into that scenario. I have never experienced severe abuse (or any abuse, and I count myself incredibly lucky for that) so therefore cannot imagine the life, the feelings, the hurt, pain and emotional damage that someone who suffered it has or had- all I can do is try and picture it, but because I can't ever see it fully, I naturally will have my own life and past slip in- subconciously- which prevents me from understanding. Because I have never felt the need to murder, I can never understand a murderer. You could say only a person we consider 'evil' should be allowed to judge if someone is evil- only they have the full understanding which, fortunately I would say, no one else can really have, not a psychopath, sane non-'evil' person or other).

I think a truly evil person isn't sane, but classing it as a mental health problem is wrong too. It's something very wrong and inbetween and almost scary, but I think no one will be able to understand it unless they develop a technology which accurately sees what someone else is seeing and thinking and feeling.

skratta · 29/12/2012 22:03

Um, a bit too long a post?

cuttherope · 29/12/2012 22:11

amillionyears

Feel like they may be trying to justify themselves after, or about to do something horrible?

Was that comment for real? Hmm

I've seen strange comments on here before but just for you - Biscuit

OutragedFromLeeds · 29/12/2012 22:11

'Outraged, it will. Imagine a scenario where everyone has gene testing before they can get a job'

That would be terrible. I can't see it happening. We have lots of scientific and medical knowledge that we don't abuse to that degree. Why would this be different?

Tbh I really, really doubt there is an 'evil gene' so the whole thing is moot really.

I don't agree that we shouldn't study and investigate something for fears of what terrible abuses could come of it.

MaryChristmaZEverybody · 29/12/2012 22:12

And Fiery has just proved my point Hmm.

Moominsarescary · 29/12/2012 22:13

But just because you lack empathy doesn't mean you don't know right from wrong. People can have all the personality traits of a psychopath but not be violent or display any criminal behaviour.

amillionyears · 29/12/2012 22:14

Never had a biscuit before.

MNHQ said it was a troll.

Are you saying cuttherope that you know you are 100% right?

babyhammock · 29/12/2012 22:15

so where do abusers fit in to all this? Those that control and abuse their children or partners to whatever degree. Do they understand what they are doing and the hurt they are causing? I think they do and don't care enough to stop as it suits their purpose. What does that make them?

Moominsarescary · 29/12/2012 22:15

If a psychopath is defined by character traits then it isn't a gene

FunnysInLaJardin · 29/12/2012 22:15

No I don't, to the OP. I think it is deffo a case of nurture over nature where evilness is concerned

amillionyears · 29/12/2012 22:18

Looks like you are a brand new poster this evening cuttherope Xmas Hmm

cuttherope · 29/12/2012 22:20

No not brand new. Just more of a lurker.

Thought your comment was strange, so I commented on it.

As did another user. Don't see you pulling them up on it.

If you really think a murdering psychopath is patrolling mumsnet in a bid to defend their behaviour then I am slightly lost for words.

babyhammock · 29/12/2012 22:21

Moomin but psychopaths have been shown to have a different brain set up on mri scans which causes them to display different personality traits to the rest of us. Is that difference in brain make up caused by a gene or early attachment disorders or abuse?

OutragedFromLeeds · 29/12/2012 22:26

I think there is evidence to suggest genes can influence personality traits moomin

Moominsarescary · 29/12/2012 22:26

baby so have people with other personality disorders, which in the majority of cases is thought to be because of abuse or trauma in childhood which for some reason has stoopped traits of their personalitys from developing in the usual way.

amillionyears · 29/12/2012 22:29

Didnt see the other poster.
Which one?

GreatCongas · 29/12/2012 22:30

Sorry about my random post in the middle
I manage to miss some pages

MoreCrackThanHarlem · 29/12/2012 22:31

As the mother of a 12yo I find it very disturbing to read posts which suggest 10yo children should be hung for crimes they have committed.

No defence or excuse for the horrific deed they perpetrated, but comments like this are inexcusable.

MaryChristmaZEverybody · 29/12/2012 22:35

Can I give you an example of empathy?

I used to get really, really cross with ds1, because he would walk into the sitting room and change the tv station, reducing dd and ds2 to tears. I used to think he was deliberately upsetting them, and selfishly turning the tv to something he wanted to watch.

It was only when I had a long conversation when he was 16 (yes 16 - ten years after he started the behaviour) that I realised that he was changing the tv station because the programme that was on was boring. He genuinely thought he was being helpful - he was turning the tv to something interesting.

It never occurred to him that dd was enjoying the original programme.

He genuinely thought she would be pleased that he changed it.

Was he being nasty?

He is autistic btw.

OutragedFromLeeds · 29/12/2012 22:40

What was his reaction to DD and DS2 crying?

MaryChristmaZEverybody · 29/12/2012 22:43

He genuinely didn't understand why they were upset.

He genuinely thought they would be glad he had found something more interesting to watch.

Once I realised how he thought (years and years later), I could explain things to him. And life got much easier. He still can't understand that dd might want to watch x-factor when deep sea fishing is on, but now that I have told him he accepts that she has weird likes Grin.

It's funny - it's something that is so obvious now I know. Whereas I used to think he was being nasty.

I wish I could go back, knowing what I know, and bring him up again.

BaresarkBunny · 29/12/2012 22:47

LaurieBlueBell - I always thought that it was Robert Thompson who had the more traumatic childhood out of the two boys?

Lilka · 29/12/2012 22:50

No I don't think people are 'born evil'. I have a slight trouble with the word evil, it just springs up hellfire images from religion

Some people completely fail to develop empathy and compassion as they develop. Empathy is not present at birth. It is developed in the earlier years. And major problems in the early years can sometimes result in empathy not developing normally or even being absent alltogether. Although some people who commit awful crimes come from very loving homes as well. But poeple with bad early childhoods are very disproportionately represented among criminals

OutragedFromLeeds · 29/12/2012 22:51

then I think, no he was not being nasty, but it's an issue of understanding I think. He didn't understand why they were upset, but when he did, he stopped doing it.

I believe that the children that murdered James Bulger knew and understood that he was crying because they were beating him. They just didn't care.

Moominsarescary · 29/12/2012 22:52

I think they had very similar upbringings and history's of violent behaviour