to think some people are just born evil?

[themomentsinbetween]

Do you think some people are born bad?

Or is it there surroundings and people in their lives that make them bad.

For example, Thompson and Venables, were they just born bad?

Charles Manson?

Harold Shipman?

Good people don't just have a bad day and start killing people.

I remember the question of "born evil" was raised once amongst a group of my friends at a meal out. Like here, there was a mix of opinion - nature v nurture and so on. Someone said something very thought provoking which those who believe that some people are born evil and it was this: imagine if you could travel back in time, knowing what you know now, for example in regard to Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin or any other mass murderer you could think of (or any murderer really, child abuser, rapist etc) and be placed in a position where that individual had just been born. Now consider if you could commit murder yourself and kill that newborn baby - in order to save (depending) millions of deaths. Be honest - even for the greater good - how many of us could/would do that ? If not, why not (assuming there'd be no personal repercussions for us) .... because, I guess, a newborn baby is seen as being completely innocent - and if we think that, then we can't believe in being born evil - if all that makes sense ??

should read

Someone said something very thought provoking which those who believe that some people are born evil might like to think about

Hecate, oh.
Will they still be able to read what is written?

Feel like they may be trying to justify themselves after, or about to do something horrible?

Yes. I am sure they would be able to, they always can, even after mn bans you you can still read not logged in.

Which is I suppose a good reason to delete their threads. It's just this is an interesting and intelligent debate and it seems a shame to lose it.

catsmother have you read Making History by Stephen Fry absolutely brilliant 'What if you could prevent Hitler?' novel.

I really don't think a psychopathic murderer will post a thread on mn to see if their behaviour can be excused amillion

catsmother I think I could do it. But wouldn't. I think the whole concept of tampering with history is a dicey one. Kill baby Adolf Hitler - what would the result be,what would fill the void? Would a worse mass murderer exist instead? What would the consequences of acting for the greater good actually be?

It's like the film Buttefly Effect but with time travel.

no,what an illiberal view point.circumstance,opportunity,stress all drive behaviours
I don't believe born evil

They dont have to be a murderer though.
There are lots of horrible behaviour inbetween.

You'll then understand that some people are born psychopaths, without the normal human emotions and without the ability to understand the concepts of right and wrong. Some of these people will do things that others describe as evil... does that make the people evil? I'm not sure it does.

Isn't the point that the definition of an evil person really starts with intent and whether they have the understanding of empathy and/or a concept of right and wrong? If you have understanding and go against that then you could be described as evil. But if you lack that ability to begin with, your comprehension is different therefore you might carry out evil actions, but your lack of capacity to understand means you can't necessarily be evil.

So being born evil, in effect means born with the deliberate intent to inflict as much harm on people as possible without regard.

Ali I'm not picking on anyone. You made an interesting point and I responded. FWIW I agree that if two people had exactly the same upbringing and one turns out to be a serial killer and one doesn't it would be a prudent observation.

The bit I disagree with is that siblings ever have the same upbringing. Even where children are growing up in the same family envorinment, their role in the family will be different and their experiences outside the home will be different. For example, two siblings growing up in an abusive home, one had a supportive, kind class teacher and some good friends, one has a bullying nasty teacher and no friends. Are we suprised when they turn into different teenagers?

Outraged you do have a point there,I can see where you are coming from completely. And agree.

Mad, sad, bad, who knows?

But helping unhappy struggling children and their families just might stop some of the nastiness happening

What I find very scary is that ordinary people just like me can be drawn into committing atrocities in socially chaotic situations like civil wars.

I think most people have the capacity to behave with extreme cruelty.

I think some in our society - DM types - like to believe this theory as it means society is not responsible
We are all products of our environment but, sadly, children can be harmed developmentally at a very young age
Environment includes the time in the womb
My daughter was only 15 months old when we adopted her but she is a very troubled child
The brain does most of its developing in the first 2 years and it is the first experience which lays down the neuronal pathway which will be the blueprint for everything that follows

And I agree with other posters - good people can do bad things
If they arm teachers in the good old US one of them will flip one day when holding a gun

Impossible. People are not born bad.
They might inherit weak or strong versions of their parents' latent/suppressedncharacteristics which are drawn out by their bad circumstances in childhood or later life. So you wouldn't be able to predict it and you'd think oh they have such nice parents....just a bad seed.

Shag has a very good point about civil war. The difference between 'right and wrong', is a social construct that requires stability and consensus to enforce.

When those constructs are removed people behave in different ways according to what is deemed acceptable under different conditions. So for example, some one who is the enemy can be dehumanised by conditioning and therefore torture could be seen as acceptable or even deserved.

The person committing the crime hasn't changed at all, but the social constructs and understanding of what is expected of them have.

Which may explain things about the actions of people who live in 'civilised society' too.

I didn't have time to read the whole thread yet but something that shocked me in the news - Lanza, the latest shooting massacre kid in the States - they are going to examine his DNA to see if he had some kind of serial killer gene

That's true, Shagmund.

People in groups, through history, have done vile, vile things.

I wonder what it is about people that makes them do things as part of a group that they would not do alone.

Does this mean that people would do these things, but lack the 'courage' to do them alone?

Or that they do these things if they feel there are no consequences for them?

Those are actually quite chilling thoughts.

The evil must be inside from very early on. People can be depressed , abused in every shape and form but yet would never actually go on to hurt anyone out of an act of revenge. Then someone who has evil inside them may have it triggered by a serious of life problems and explodes onto others. Then there are purely evil people who for some reason plot to do horrible things with what seems to be no motive behind it. They must just be evil inside and out.

Well - the boy had aspergers, and a mother who had armed herself to the teeth in anticipation of complete social breakdown and anarchy.

As the parent of a ds with aspergers, the story sent a cold shiver down my spine.

MNHQ-please don't delete-it's a good debate to get our teeth into!

Have they really discovered a serial killer gene? Doubt it.

I think they're looking for it digerd, rather than they've already found it.