To have told SIL "no...NOT Pardon!"?

[MrsMushroom]

We're abroad with DHs family.

DD aged 4 didn't hear something SIL said.....DD said "What?" and SIL said "WHAT? WHAT??? I think you mean PARDON don't you?"

I HAD to say..."No...in England "what" is fine. Or If you prefer..."sorry, I didn't catch that."

Was I rude? I just don't want DD saying "Pardon" or even worse "P'don"

Oh and Merry Christmas everyone!

Coming to this a bit late but 'what' seems rude to me but more importantly it is ambiguous. If I say something and somebody says what I don't know if they mean they didn't hear or they didn't understand. It is also quite aggressive IMO - I would say 'what' if I was hearing something I didn't like.

If you don't want to say pardon then sorry is OK but 'what' is not nice.

'Pardon' IMO is mimsy and pursed-lipped and embodies the ghastly English self-parodying lower orders attempting to better themselves by replacing a perfectly serviceable solid word ('what') with a (to them) posher-sounding fancy French alternative.

I can only ever pronounce it puddern, like someone from the Goon Show.

I'd get the right hump if a teacher steered my children into such déclassé faux-polite waters. I faint enough at 'toilet.' there must be limits.

Yanbu. Pardon is common.

Hate what. Much prefer pardon & have always thought 'what' is common. Would prefer excuse me.

NotMostPeople you would have a very restricted English vocabulary indeed if you excluded words which were not of "English origin"given that the language is an amalgamation of the languages of all the tribes and nations who have invaded the islands over thousands of years as well as those who have traded with, immigrated in large numbers to, or influenced the isles culturally over a similar period, rather than something that developed in some form of pure isolation! It would be quite hard to define and identify what words of "English origin" even are...

Sofa, for example, comes from Turkish...

UKGrinch absolutely and there are fascinating linguistic legacies the length of the country (Viking words in Scots and Geordie for example) but this discussion is more about the social nuances of ones choice of word and the aspirations and snobism revealed thereby.

Choosing a fancy French alternative to a solid English word reveals a social insecurity and desire to appear more refined and educated than one probably is, causing glee and schadenfreude in the more socially established. It is a fabulously and peculiarly English phenomena and one which, as an outsider, I never tire of observing..

I see your point SilverBaubles, but I think it is over-stating the case to say that very often it is using a fancy French alternative to a solid English word. Why is 'mirror' fancy compared to the far more unwieldy 'looking glass'. What is the inherent difference between the words sofa and settee - they are both two syllable words beginning with S. How on earth is toilet a fancy word compared to the multi-syllable lav-a-tor-y. I agree that people often see pardon as a more delicate word than what. But I don't think it's quite the same as the people who constantly say, for example, myself instead of me because they think it sounds posh - since it is actually a grammatically correct useage.

More generally to the discussion. At what stage does a word become an ok word? Because, as everyone has agreed, there isn't really such a thing as an English word. It seems to me that a certain strata of society have a strong snobbish-ness towards French words.

Correcting other people's children is rude. In fact, correcting anyone's language is rather rude. But people who say 'pardon' themselves tend to do so because they were taught that 'what' is rude, so they are trying to observe polite social manners.

I think that's a more wholesome and honest aspiration than those who delight in sniggering that pardon is such a common word, and aren't those who use it just frightful. Isn't it all just even worse than cunt, ha ha.

And I would go further than SilverBaubles and say that I think that there is something particularly vile and spiteful in the English habit of laughing at anyone who tries to 'better themelves' by using posh language, but getting it wrong. I mean, how dare those lower class oiks try and sound all educated. And, snigger, they think serviette is a posh word. Snigger.

Dear god, I bought my own furniture. My parents say lounge (although I say living room, not sure why). How dare I say 'napkin' and 'sofa' and pretend I am better than I am. Don't worry, you'll catch me out when I ask to use your toilet and I try out my new perfume.

Guess you didn't think Hyacinth Bucket was very funny, then.

I have to agree, at least people who say pardon are trying to be polite, if misguided, whereas people who say "what" make me think there has been no attempt at manners whatsoever.

I agree it would be restricted but that's the general rule if one is U rather than non U apparently.

These days I think it's more like a secret club, you only get in if you know the password (napkin, lavatory etc) Knowing the password doesn't mean that you are any class in particular it only means you know the rules and have applied them.

Someone says pardon I like it because it gives me a chance to say "why what have you done?".

In casual company it's "eh?". "say again? "you what?" or as my nan says "come again m'lovely"

In polite company or at work "sorry I didn't catch that"

Dp farts and says pardon. My brother once said "pardon? You want shooting for that!". So now that's a catchphrase.

We are common though. I think

Wow! I'm not English nor do I live in England and this thread has totally astonished me! I honestly didn't realise English people were still so concerned about class - I thought it was a stereotype! It comes across as if the most awful thing imaginable would be to come across as from one of the "lower orders". Is this right or have I completely misunderstood?

I was brought up to say Pardon, but now I say 'sorry'. I think it's working within Posh households that's turned me

Stillstarving I think about 80% of the posters are being tongue in cheek when they post phrases like "the lower orders", and certainly the responses to the OP on the first few pages read as tongue in cheek to me - those who were horrified had missed that I think... About 10% of people were seriously bothered about the class issue, and the rest have gone off on tangents.

stillstarving I think (and even though I'm English I still don't fully get it) the worst thing is to be middle class. Working class and upper class are both ok. :)

YANBU.

Every few years my DC will have a teacher who thinks saying "pardon?" is acceptable.

It's not.

No Still. Working class people are proud to be normally - look at all the footballers and musicians who proudly proclaim their working class roots. What is utterly, utterly frightful is to be middle class. So a good number of people spend a lot of energy pretending to be working or upper when they are bang slap in the middle classes. It is a total waste of energy.

Pardon is common? What a load of shite. What is incredibly rude sounding.

Pardon in my house I'm afraid. I have 4 year old Ds and correct him with pardon when I hear "whhaaaat?"

Ah yes, what Chased says is true - most people are proud to be working class if they are sure they are, upper class people are not even supposed to think about it, being upper middle class I think is probably OK too (being more defined by profession than anything).. What nobody wants to admit to being themselves, is lower middle class - that is the group who are supposed to be forever trying to appear to be something they aren't It is a British thing but I contend it is not only English. Also other nationalities have their own versions - the Americans most certainly do, no matter how much they deny it

Saying "shite" is also, um, common.

I hate 'say again'. Makes me really stabby. Not bothered otherwise. Working class origins but a teacher now so some would label me middle class I suspect.

i hate the word pardon, but i find what? horrible, especially on kids! i just say "sorry?"

I don't really care tbh. I tend to say "Sorry, I didn't catch what you said", or some such.

I think the issue with 'pardon' is that tradtionally, in polite usage, you were asking to be pardoned for having done something 'rude' - i.e. passing wind. Why ask to be pardoned for not hearing?

As I say, I don't really care what others say but have never encouraged my children to use pardon.