To think having children does not make you less selfish

[Atthewelles]

There's a woman I work with who constantly expects everyone to fit in with her child care arrangements. Even if its part of her job to attend a late evening meeting she will insist that a colleague covers for her because 'I have kids'. She has had the last couple of Christmasses off but is insisting she is getting this one as well, even though people are meant to take turns at providing cover on 27th - 31st Dec because 'I have a young family'. She's the same with Summer holidays. The creche closes for the first fortnight in August so, as far as she's concerned, this gives her an automatic right to have these two weeks off despite the high demand from other staff.
I have just heard her discussing, with another colleague, how becoming a mother totally changes you and makes you 'much less selfish'. .
I have heard people come out with that remark before, even though some of the most selfish people I know are those with small children who expect the world to revolve around them.
AIBU to think that some people are selfish and some are not, and parenthood does not change that?

Our definitions of essential differ. Especially since I think stopping 2 elderly people slipping into a decline IS essential.

They certainly do. Legally 2 elderly people can be at home alone, a 2 year old cannot. Adult supervision for young children is essential and a legal requirement whatever way you choose to define it.

I agree with you. I think people in both circumstances should take it in turns. After all, children have 2 parents so if one has to work every other year, the other can look after said 2 year old. Equality I the way forward.

not all children have 2 parents, mine doesn't. Then again i'm self employed and can take holidays to suit without it affecting anyone else. However i worked christmases/holidays for 20 years before becoming a parent to accomodate colleagues who were parents. Whilst i may have been put out, no one suffered because i had to work christmas and as my job required 24hr cover it was to be expected. If i were to become an employee again i would look into how holiday was allocated etc before accepting that job to ensure that either myself or my childcare provider could care for my child during holidays.

All children have two parents. Whether both are involved can be debatable. But that is not something those without kids should be penalised for.

I agree she sounds annoying but I also wonder what her options are for childcare cover. It's up to your boss to be fair with everyone and that includes being stricter with her. If she has no dp/dh then a firm comment about getting babysitter or holiday club is all it would take.

ifancyashandy, yes, some children do only have one parent because one of their parents might have died.

Having children is a selfish act - can't wait for the day when our son says 'I didn't ASK to be born!'

What she might mean is that she doesn't put her needs first anymore - she puts those of her children. And am I the only one who hasn't been glad to have an excuse not to do something I didn't want to do anyway because of having to look after my baby, or being up with him with a cold, etc.

Does that make parents child-ish?

I can't see how anybody could know at Easter whether they would have a wedding or funeral or a sick parent who needed looking after for the last two weeks of August!?

Organising the year's holidays so far in advance using a "who deserves this more?" system is always going to give this woman priority. Not taking this time off will cost her money. Not just inconvenience.

What about the people without children who are planning on holidays with their extended family? They deserve August too!

Ariel fair point. And that should be taken into account. But that is more likely to be an exception rather than the rule.

Having children doesn't necessarily make you less selfish no.

The woman in the OP sounds like a pain in the backside.

But, she may have no other childcare options if the nursery closes first 2 weeks in August and between Christmas and New Year. She may be a single parent with no family willing/ able to help. She may have a partner with an unflexible rota (emergency services, hospital worker, armed forces, etc). So she may be the only person able to look after the DC when the nursery is closed.
It is essential to have someone to care for small children. It may be desirable to spend Christmas with elderly parents, nieces/ nephews, etc but it is not essential. They are not your dependents and the degree of responsibility is totally different. Spending Christmas with elderly parents, sadly, isn't going to stop an inevitable decline. That will happen to all of us as we age. I appreciate that having regular support could slow a decline but it doesn't have to be over Christmas specifically.

Well, fortunately, it's not for others to decide what is or isn't essential when it comes to my parents. Like I said, am purely advocating equality.

Well just bear in mind that some people may be desperate for children yet can't have them, and to constantly have their desires and plans overridden by those who do, only adds to the misery. Just a small point.

ariel not my situation but agree with you.

A family friend of mine decided to throw a big FINAL party for their dad.
The Father had been diagnosed with terminal cancer and only had months to live. (party organised several months in advance)

So middle of the nativity season ALL of his family, friends and several hangers on turned up for his send off.

You should have heard the crap that he had to put up with because several parents had to miss their DC's nativity play.

When the Father had the audacity to die on Christmas eve you could almost feel the nastiness coming off some of the parents.

The firm had to bring people into the office due to some of things that where said.

Boney that's hideous. :(

I don't think anyone should have preference over the Xmas hols because they have small children. Christmas is for everyone - old, young, families, singles etc. Therefore it should be fairly distributed that ppl have to work and have time off the following year or some other fair rota.
As a 31 year old, I will be having my first ever family Xmas since I was born as my mother had to work every year. I am relishing having us all together for the whole day even though there are no children involved. It is a special time for everyone.

It's lovely that you have such a close relationship with your parents Ifancy (I genuinely meant that) but that argument can be used to make almost anything 'essential'.

Personally, I think it's about give and take.
If someone has no childcare over a particular part of the year and needs to have time off to care for their young DC and has booked leave in advance, show them consideration.
If someone else needs time off because an elderly parent has been admitted to hospital/ is terminally ill, they should be given sympathy and consideration.

boney- that's terrible about your friend's experience.

As I said up thread - it's about equal need and no particular family circumstances coming before another.

And thank you sugar!

I think that it is impossible to fairly judge who needs time off more, so if two people want the same period off and the business can't accommodate that it has to be decided without reference to who might "need it more".

Kids change people, that goes without saying. Parents have less free time, and less flexibility than other people. It doesn't mean they have an automatic right to preferential treatment, but I can see why they might be more pushy about it. Pre-marriage I loved working over xmas as it was quiet in the office and I got loads done without constant interruption. I didn't have kids at home requiring care, or family to visit, so it was easy for me to work.

I have a team of around 40 people who work for me and at least 2/3rds of the team have young children (including myself). I get some people who give me a list of holidays on 2nd January for the whole year requesting all the 'busy' holidays. I always say I can't guarantee that they'll get all that they ask for and putting in a request early makes no difference. I also say that if they had time off last year they may not get it this year. This 'rule' applies to everyone irrespective of whether or not they have children.
Who made the law that those with children must get what they want first. It may not make me popular with everyone but at least I know I'm being fair.
OP your management need to deal with the situation so your colleagues are not put in an awkward situation.

It's a sensitive subject I think. Whereas I would happily give my summer holidays up to a colleague with children, I want to spend Christmas with my family. It's one of the only times we are all off together and we live apart, so don't meet up often. I would be happy to alternate with people with children however and would only be especially worried about Christmas Day, so would work Christmas Eve or Boxing Day for a parent.

IMO, 27th onward is a normal working day, so should come under normal holiday rules, whatever they are for your particular company. I prefer first come, first served really as it seems most fair, but I don't think there is any problem with someone asking if anyone can swap with them - demanding is quite another thing and likely to make me a bit stubborn.

In this case it sounds like a problem with management, they should enforce company rules and ensure that everyone feels holiday distribution is fair. It sounds like people are resentful in this case and that's not a good thing.