To think having children does not make you less selfish

[Atthewelles]

There's a woman I work with who constantly expects everyone to fit in with her child care arrangements. Even if its part of her job to attend a late evening meeting she will insist that a colleague covers for her because 'I have kids'. She has had the last couple of Christmasses off but is insisting she is getting this one as well, even though people are meant to take turns at providing cover on 27th - 31st Dec because 'I have a young family'. She's the same with Summer holidays. The creche closes for the first fortnight in August so, as far as she's concerned, this gives her an automatic right to have these two weeks off despite the high demand from other staff.
I have just heard her discussing, with another colleague, how becoming a mother totally changes you and makes you 'much less selfish'. .
I have heard people come out with that remark before, even though some of the most selfish people I know are those with small children who expect the world to revolve around them.
AIBU to think that some people are selfish and some are not, and parenthood does not change that?

I don't think it's selfish to want the last two weeks in August if she has no child care, just sensible.

The evenings are drawing in and it rains, she's welcome to them.

I think the world would be a better place if we all tried to accommodate each others needs a bit more and moaned a bit less.

It's not selfish to want it, but it would be selfish to expect special treatment when other people also want it.

I think they're v different scenarios actually. If crèche is closed and she has no other options for childcare (ie no relatives etc) then she's pretty stuffed. It's a pain it's August, but assuming her kids are small and her dp isn't a teacher (I'm guessing unlikely, or she wouldn't have childcare probs), then actually she'd surely prefer to be off in September when holidays etc tend to be cheaper?

But Christmas is different - she should be in the same position as everyone else. Having children doesn't give you a magical right for time off then.

Anyway overall YANBU

YANBU

When you have children, it makes 99% of people put them before themselves. But there's not much more selfish than having children in the first place. And the desire to put them first is a biological instinct to preserve your own genes anyway. (I do have children by the way)

I have a relative that used to go on and on about her saintly life 'as a mother', but was actually incredibly selfish and rude, always late, forgetting birthdays, cancelling at the last minute 'because of the children'.

Startail

It's the first two weeks in August for which there is a lot of demand for time off. One employee is not 'more' entitled to this time than another. Obviously, if you can accommodate someone most reasonable people will be happy to do so. But that is very different from a colleague 'demanding' this time off as if it is a sacred right regardless of other people's plans.

C'mon OP, answer the question that several people have asked! Who's authorising these holidays? Because they're the ones you should have the problem with. If she continues to demand and then receive, then of course she'll keep on demanding.

I have to agree with others I am much less selfish now because my DCs always have to be my first thought. Even where I'm doing something for me I have to make sure they are taken care of first. But actually in relation to work I think I am more selfish then I used to be. I don't have the flexibility to work late into the evenings (nursery shuts at 6pm and I have a commute too) and I do need to take my leave during school holidays for the weeks where there's no holiday club and over Christmas when nursery is shut. Any sane person without school age kids will avoid the school hols like the plague anyway

Before I had kids I was fairly generous towards my employer and colleagues by working late, going away at short notice or covering other's work but now I have DCs I cannot be so flexible. It's not even selfishness actually it's more a fact of life and I'm expecting that the pendulum will swing the other way as my DCs get older.

MsVestibule

She makes a complete song and dance and starts giving out about the company not being 'family friendly' etc and management, for the sake of a quiet life, give in and ask other people to accommodate her. If people say 'no' she then starts giving out and trying to make them feel bad.
So yes, people should tell her to fuck off, but she makes it very difficult and someone always gives in. (Not me, I do try to be accommodating, but not to selfish people who stamd their feet and demand).

YANBU

My DB has no children. Yet he is never able to take holiday which coincides with his DP's holiday because she works in a school and his colleagues with children get priority for taking leave in school holidays

Similarly, we can never all get together as a family at Christmas because he has to work.

Yes he doesn't have children, but he'd love to see the rest of his family (including nephew) at Christmas!

management, for the sake of a quiet life, give in and ask other people to accommodate her. If people say 'no' she then starts giving out and trying to make them feel bad.
So yes, people should tell her to fuck off, but she makes it very difficult and someone always gives in

Well, OP, if that's the case, then your company has a very big problem with its management!!

'I have heard people come out with that remark before, even though some of the most selfish people I know are those with small children who expect the world to revolve around them'

I also agree. When people first have kids they seem to think they are the first ever couple to reproduce. We've all probably been a bit guilty of it, then you realise that only you and maybe your family give a rats arse about you and your offspring. A humbling day indeed.

I know selfish people who are parents. Then again, I also know some very kind and selfless people who aren't.

Well, then management need to sit her down, tell her it's first come first served on holiday requests so if she knows she needs those 2 weeks, she needs to apply on the first working day of the new Year. It's not like she doesn't know. If someone else (if you want to be a cow, you) gets their request in and approved first, you're entitled to refuse. However, why would anyone who doesn't have DCs want to go away when it's the most expensive and most crowded?

re Christmas, they should hold firm and make her work it, refuse to cover and ask why she doesn't have too.

Sorry, to clarify, no-one needs to be telling her to "fuck off", but your management team need to be acting like a management team and not giving in to an individual employee's demands. That should be why they are management!

Your problem is management.

They aren't professional.

You don't base management decisions on things like 'feeling bad'.

This women does sound selfish.

Totally agree having children does not automatically mean you are entitled to certain holidays. She needs to find alternative childcare if necessary. While requests should be accommodated where possible it should not be to the detriment of other employees like deckthehalls DB. The fact that he doesn't have children is irrelevant.

I have had my annual leave ALLOCATED TO ME in the past, no choice and this is not unusual in some jobs (A&E doctor)0

However, why would anyone who doesn't have DCs want to go away when it's the most expensive and most crowded? [Quote]

Well, some childless people still like to go on family holidays with siblings and nephews and nieces; particularly if everyone likes to return to the old family home for a summer get together. Also, sometimes you get invited to a wedding abroad during August. There's loads of reasons why people without DCs might want their holidays in August.

Of course having children doesn't make you less selfish. If anything it makes you more selfish, you just expand your sphere of selfishness to include your children.

Before kids I would never have dreamed about being so pushy with holidays. I know it really pisses some of my colleagues off, but I can't cope having to work during school holidays or working late.

A person without children or grown up children may have just as many obligagions and committments to relatives as people with children have. Everybody should take a turn of working over Christmas.

Management sound like a chocolate teapot in this situation

@obligations

Perhaps it makes you less selfish in that you have to get up and see to a hungry baby, whereas before you may have just wanted to sleep through your hangover. Or, if push came to shove, you would go without food in order to feed your child.

But in many ways it makes you more selfish, because in caring so fundamentally for your set of genes, you are in essence, just caring for yourself. When it comes to interactions outside their own nuclear family, then I think parents are often more selfish. Remember the woman who wanted to push in at the taxi queue, simply because she had kids?

It's not selfish of her to request cover, or request her annual leave entitlement at times which suit her.

If you think the situation isn't being managed fairly, why don't you take it up with your manager?

olgaga I just refuse to accommodate her if it doesn't suit me. But there are people who just 'give in' when she starts going off on one. I agree, management should just say 'you got August off last year and the year before. We have to be fair to everyone' but they're so anxious to not be seen as discriminating against working mothers that they lean too far the other way sometimes.

What would happen if she wasn't the only worker with small children and they were all like her?
I worked in an office where many women had small children. If you took time off to look after them, you had to take part of your annual leave, and all leave requests had to be in by the 21st January for that whole year.
However, there was one woman who went sick for every school holiday. She was formally told to shape up or resign, but she had no conscience at all. Just said I am entitled as I always get a Medical Certificate. There was nothing that could be done.

But in many ways it makes you more selfish, because in caring so fundamentally for your set of genes, you are in essence, just caring for yourself.

That's such a load of shit. Speak for yourself. I never look at my DCs as a set of genes or as an exension of me. They are their own people. When they were little, their defensiveless made me shiver to think of it, when they grew up I cared for them as they were, little children, not some genetic reproducive project of mine

And yes, sorry, after 2 summers ago when I had to ferry dcs from awful playscheme to unknown kids club throughout the summer, with them crying every morning that they hated it, I have definitely been more pushy in booking time off so I can care for them for less than the price of a trip abroad for all of us. Fair play to this woman at least she is standing up for herself