To think having children does not make you less selfish

[Atthewelles]

There's a woman I work with who constantly expects everyone to fit in with her child care arrangements. Even if its part of her job to attend a late evening meeting she will insist that a colleague covers for her because 'I have kids'. She has had the last couple of Christmasses off but is insisting she is getting this one as well, even though people are meant to take turns at providing cover on 27th - 31st Dec because 'I have a young family'. She's the same with Summer holidays. The creche closes for the first fortnight in August so, as far as she's concerned, this gives her an automatic right to have these two weeks off despite the high demand from other staff.
I have just heard her discussing, with another colleague, how becoming a mother totally changes you and makes you 'much less selfish'. .
I have heard people come out with that remark before, even though some of the most selfish people I know are those with small children who expect the world to revolve around them.
AIBU to think that some people are selfish and some are not, and parenthood does not change that?

Well then, what they need is a policy. One that has been checked to ensure it fully complies with all legislation and which is fair to all staff.

And then they follow it.

Problem solved.

Why don't you suggest that to them?

Yes thelean she is standing up for herself, but at the expense of other people. That is commonly known as 'selfish'.

YANBU

I've recently spent a few days with a friend who was always selfish and self-absorbed - now she's self- and child-absorbed and expects the world to revolve around both of them.

Other friends, who were not selfish and self-absorbed before having children, are still lovely. :)

I think your management needs to call her out on her behaviour - she sounds awful.

It doesn't work that she can't have august off because she had it last year, if she gets her request in first, then she gets her request in first. I guess it will require others to be equally or more organised.

We have a 'first come first served' approach to holidays at our place and a maximum number who can be off at the same time - I knew I would need christmas eve off because I wouldn't have childcare so I requested it last February. A lot of others in our office did'nt think about their Christmas plans until October/November and then tried to book it, but I'd got in first. For next year I'll be on mat leave so I wont need it again, but if I wsn't, I think I'd book it as I went back in January (first date I can book holiday for 2013). I also don't have childcare between Christmas and new year -this year, not a problem because we're shutting the office for work to be done, but if I checked that and was prepared to book it from my annual leave back in February as well.

It might look like others can't have the time because I'm always getting my own way or because I'm a mother, but it's more that because I don't have flexiblity I have to get my requests in first.

If this woman booked her August holiday first, then you have no reason to complain. Christmas cover is a different issue and unfair.

The trouble with a thread like this is that some posters cannot seem to help taking offence at another poster's objective observation. I guess it will always be the same if people's attitudes to their children are being discussed.

That's not the way it works here Dontmind. At Easter a chart is circultated and people are asked to enter their leave requirements. Then, if too many people want the same time off, (which is nearly always August) it is discussed and one of the main factors taken into account is 'who had August off last year.' in order to spread it around a bit. This colleague however has had the last five August's in a row off and people are getting really fed up.
I agree, management need to step in and issue some kind of guideline to back up local managers in these situations.

YANBU to be annoyed if she is not covering her fair share of rotas or is givenpriority for her leave over others without children. People who do this make me really cross, especially when others have children and do make it work. I have a child, I am also expected to cover bank holidays including Christmas on a rota. It is my job, its in my contract, therefore I make it work. Otherwise I would have to try and find another job. It's not easy, but its not other people's responsibility either

This is the management's fault, by the sound of it. She is throwing her weight around and management aren't standing up to her. She should certainly be allowed some of her requested time off, but so should the other employees in her team.

However, I think when it comes to school holidays, parents should be given preference (unless other team members have equally valid reasons for needing that time off). Before I had kids I would never have wanted to go on holiday during school holidays - hot, crowded and much more expensive - I loved being able to go during the quieter, cheaper times and look back wistfully on those days now.

'Who had august off last year' seems a really stupid way to do it. How does it take into account things like new starters and what sort of leave it was. For instance, its a bit harsh on person A if they've been there 20 years, never had august off but had to take some time off for an op or a funeral or something last year, if person B starts and a few months later asks for august off and gets it because they weren't off last august. What if you were working on a huge project that made $$$ and was due mid July last year so took some of august off ? Should that count against you? Whoever asks first seems fairer IMO because if I were to ask for sep 26th off next year already, I must have a really good reason for wanting it, better than someone who asks on Sep 1st.

Obviously Lean common sense comes into play. But there's a broad general approach that if someone has had their first choice of holiday time for the last year or two they should stand back this year if someone else would like that time.
Asking first is not always fair. Some people don't know nearly a year in advance what their needs will be. It doesn't necessarily mean those needs are less important than someone who got their spoke in on the 1st January.

However, I think when it comes to school holidays, parents should be given preference (unless other team members have equally valid reasons for needing that time off). [quote]
But your idea of valid and mine mightn't be the same. I think a general approach of rotating things with a bit of give and take between colleagues should work, if you don't have one or two selfish people making demands all the time.

"However, I think when it comes to school holidays, parents should be given preference (unless other team members have equally valid reasons for needing that time off)."

I don't think the reason should come into it. Surely if you're asking for that time then you have a reason behind it? (as others have pointed out, it's a more expensive holiday time) Who decides which reason is more valid?

I think first come first served is the best policy, although it does mean planning in advance which many people don't do, unless they have the fixed school holidays...

I've booked my summer holiday in January before now and everyone at work was . It did mean though that in the team I got priority when they decided to cancel some people's leave as I'd asked for my holiday months before everyone else...

Becomes much MORE selfish, but it's now about the little tribe rather than the individual. Still selfish though.

Having children is, in itself, neither selfish nor unselfish. It is simply something the majority of people need to do for the human race to continue.

But, of course, your priorities do change when you have kids. I do not like working late because I want to get back to my family. Nor do I like working weekends for the same reason. Or, I should say, I like those things even less with kids around. But that is completely normal and I don't think anyone here likes working extra hours. We just do it if it needs to be done.

Your children do have to come before other commitments you have, even before your own welfare. If there was only a small portion of food left, you would give it to your kids and go without yourself. It is human nature.

However, should this woman assume special treatment? I think the question is whether she will forgo the time off you have mentioned if/when other people have young children. Ask her this. When her children are older, will she be willing to make allowances for others the same way she has expected. That will tell you whether she is selfish or if she just thinks everyone should put children first.

"I think first come first served is the best policy, although it does mean planning in advance which many people don't do, unless they have the fixed school holidays..."

Agree. That's how it works in my office. Every year, two of us scramble for a certain off - because both of us have a childs birthday on that day. Who-so-ever gets there first gets the day(s) off.

I think that selfish people do become less selfish when they have children.

However, they also fail to notice that lots of other people were never as selfish as them, as when they were selfish that hadn't realised that they were selfish iyswim.

Just becuase she was a selfish cow bag before she had children doesn't mean everyone else was/is!

But you can't always plan in advance. I need to take some time off this Christmas to be with my mother because my father died this year and I don't want her to be on her own feeling sad. I couldn't plan that in advance but I think its just as valid as the needs of some colleagues who did plan in advance.

I agree ethelb I think a lot of the people who say this are actually people who never gave anyone else a seconds thought before the had children and are absolutely amazed to now find themselves actually putting someone else first.

I used to be an office manager. I always insisted that holidays were allocated first come, first served, including myself.

I have children. I managed to juggle stuff but no way was I ever going to insist that I got automatic rights, simply on account of being a parent.

After all, my parents had to care for my grandad. Meaning they also had to juggle work commitments etc. Is is really right that their responsibilities were ignored in favour of parents with small children?

Plus, the school holidays thing will come back to bite you on the bum when you want to go away with your older children during the school holidays and they are denied holiday from their part time jobs as they 'don't have children'/

Happened to a family firend two years ago and she was apopletic!

I'm very sorry to hear about your dad.

I agree it's not always possible to forsee the time you need off. But in this case what would be best? Cancel the holiday that people have already asked for because you need the time off?

I think it mainly boils down to being as fair as possible to all employees. If one person consistently gets all the holidays they want then its understandable that others get pissed off with it, especially as they have to work around that with their own holidays.

I don't have this problem as such as I work in a company that practically shuts down at Christmas and in the summer. Although this does mean we can't really take holiday at any other time because we hardly have any leave left, plus our holiday can and will be cancelled if "necessary" (even if in the obligatory "closed" period).

Yes you generally get your tickets reimbursed but that doesn't help with the fact that your holiday/weekend away to see family has been cancelled!

I agree it's not always possible to forsee the time you need off. But in this case what would be best? Cancel the holiday that people have already asked for because you need the time off?

No, but I'm saying a first come first served approach doesn't always work. It's fairer, in my view, to circulate a chart on a particular day and ask everyone to come back by a deadline with requested time and then try and sort it out fairly once you have an idea of how much demand there is for certain weeks off. Allowing people to block book time a year in advance is unfair, as not everyone knows that far ahead what is going to happen in their life.

Obviously that doesn't solve the problem of last minute urgent stuff arising, but that can be dealt with on a case by case basis.

If her child care isn't open in August and she has no relatives, then she will have to employ someone through a nanny agency. We choose to have children. There are times when you juggle, have no rest, have no holiday.
Those who do not have children are no less important than those with families.

A lot of parents are very selfish when it comes to holiday requests etc, but there are plenty who do not think they are entitled to exceptional treatment. You can't generalise.

I know a couple who will be both working on Christmas Morning (paramedic) and will be home for Christmas Lunch with the 3 DC. The kids will wake up with GP's. the kids 11, 7, 6, fully understand that mum and dad have a job, and have to take turns with workmates to have Christmas morning off. Lovely, grounded, unselfish kids. Who will hopefully grow into rounded unselfish adults.

It makes you less selfish in certain ways certainly in relation to your needs against those of your children but can make you more selfish in others: as seen with the sharp-elbowed behaviour of parents in relation to schools and so forth. I think you become less selfish within the family unit but probably more selfish on behalf of the family in relation to other individuals.

But yes, some people are just bloody selfish full stop and having children won't take the edge off this. This woman sounds like a classic example of the kind of person who uses her kids as yet another example to think and talk about yourself....

DontmindifIdo
"However, why would anyone who doesn't have DCs want to go away when it's the most expensive and most crowded?"

Birthdays
weddings
family holidays
group holidays
special occasions
and most of all cos I feel like it.

juneau
"However, I think when it comes to school holidays, parents should be given preference (unless other team members have equally valid reasons for needing that time off)."

That is called discrimination.