to tell my in-laws they can't pay for my child to be educated privately because it seems a huge waste of money?

[StripeyBear]

My in-laws have offered to pay school fees for my son. He hasn't started school yet, so this would be all the way from preschool intake. They also did this for their other grandchildren. A very kind and generous offer, but....

I have been comparing the possible schools. Our State catchment school has a pass rate of 20% of S5 leavers achieving 5 or more Highers (sort of eqivalent to 3 A levels in the English system). There are 2 nearby private schools - one is selective and helps 80% of its pupils achieve 5 Highers, whilst the other takes anyone who can pay and gets 50% of its pupils 5 Highers. It is costly. Both private school charge around £10k a year - so we're talking about £120k for the whole thing in today's money.

My observation is that the private schools don't seem great. The State school can't select, so if you compare its results with the non-selective private one, it doesn't do that much better. I mean, half of the pupils at the paying school still don't get 5 Highers. Also, the State school is taking pupils from all socio-economic backgrounds - whilst you'd expect pupils at the private school to be privileged in terms of parental income, parental education levels etc.

My feeling is (given DS already benefits from educated parents - a good predictor of exam success, lots of encouragement and stimulus) that he probably stands as good a chance of exam success at the State school, rather than the ropey looking private ones... and that people will be more inclined to think his exams are good if he achieved them at a State School.

Neither of the private schools make it into the Sutton report of the top 100 schools. The only one anywhere near to us that is mentioned has fees of £20k and is very elite.

So, I think he would be better off in the State system, even if it means a polite - thank you, but no - to the grandparents. AIBU?

But that's my point about the education , you can have a string of A*s and still not be educated , you've just been taught to pass the test

.What a good independent , and the best state schools offer, is the access to so much more in addition to the curriculum. A example is my youngest who at 11 would be practicing for SATs at our local primary , they don't do SATs at his school so no boring tests and lots of extension activities and other activities.

I really don't measure the value of my child's education in numbers of as but in what they've got in addition to those As

I don't think private school churns out children who are spoiled, or brats, or who are likely to look down on others. I was the only one in my large family that went private, and I don't think it made any difference at all in my attitude towards others. It perhaps gave me self confidence and I feel that now, as an adult, I am comfortable mixing in any social environment, rich or poor.

Have you actually looked round the schools in question or are you going on what you have been able to read. If not, you need to. You need to get a feel for each of the schools and speak to the children at all of them.

There is so much more to this decision than exam results alone. Opportunities in music, sport, drama that are frankly unheard of in state schools. My 2 are at preprep dh and I are by no means rich and are from working class backgrounds as are many of the other school parents. More of a cultural and ethnic mix than at our local state school too.

aufaniae

I suppose my worry that being around lots of people who have more affluent backgrounds will be corrosive - there's lots of research on this, and basically people's sense of well-being and wealth is predicated on their peers - so being surounded by people will more material possession is certainly not a recipe for happiness :(

I have to say, I find my nieces and nephews obnoxious, ungrateful little sods, who seem completely ungrateful that their uni education is being paid for them.... but I realise that could just be them, rather than all children with huge trust funds :)

at the drug popping rich kid stereotype. Like some state schools don't have a drug problem.

You are in such a lucky position. There are a few problems with state schools around my area right now and knowing I had the backing of another option (private) would reduce so much stress.

At least if you don't take them up on the offer initially don't burn your bridges because you have an alternative if the state school does not work out , and bear mind you might not even get a place at your preferred schools.

I really think your DS will be fine whatever as you sound very grounded.

My DCs don't even know we have to pay for the school - I'm sure they will at some point of course.

The parents at the school DS2 goes to are mainly very normal - there are very few 'posh' parents as we have an elite school quite close where, frankly, many of the parents and children are quite stuck up (not all of course).

I don't think any child will be grateful for their school/uni being paid for until they are much older or a parent themselves. A close friend of mine went to private school and wasn't that fussed about it at the time but when she was older she said a massive thank you to her mum for struggling to keep her there as she realises what a positive impact the school had for her and what fabulous values it instilled in her.

I think private schooling is generally a pretty poor investment for an intelligent child with educated parents (as you note the in university situation is more relevant here - but even that is as much about contacts and not anything else.) And I think it's particularly poor if the parents are unable to provide the same lifestyle outside of school as DS's peers as that reduces the shared experiences which lead to those lifelong friendships (contacts) being established.

There are many more alternative investments which would lead to a lot more value for the children, and perhaps explaining those options to the GPs would be better. The skiing, the holidays, the "superior" part you detect is not just from the school it's from the attendant lifestye too, so investing the money in the "summer camps" common in North America, non-school teaching - music/sport/etc. whatever interests him can achieve much the same - but of course then you have a slightly different challenges managing his superiority over his less affluent state educated kids - although if you are in an affluent area that's unlikely to be that much of a problem.

So I would say if the trust can be used in that way, overseas summer camps, coaching in sports, music, tutoring in subjects if he starts to struggle etc. would be a considerably better investment than private schooling unless DS fails to fit in at his local school.

Also don't forget to factor the "cost" in time of attending a school that is not the nearest, both your time until he can cycle there by himself, but also his own time commuting and journeys to friends etc.

I think there's a huge difference in ethos at private schools depending on the area. Where I live the state schools are excellent - no-one feels the need to make huge sacrifices as their children can get an excellent education without going private (except in a few cases where parents may feel their child's particular SEN are not met). The reasons why people do go to the private schools locally are either for the extra -curricular side, or more often because for generations no member of their family has darkened the door of a state school beyond the age of 7 and they're not going to start now. Therefore these schools do have a much more elite clientele (although the quality they provide is not excellent across the board), and is more "snobby" than in other areas where you get people scrimping and saving as the state options are dire.

I think you need a bit more info on the two local private schools. I'd have a look at the Good Schools Guide or similar. Generally, I think private schools are on average better at some really important things:

• head's leadership
• higher aspirations
• less of a culture of bullying on the grounds of cleverness or being well off (all too much bullying on other grounds including not being well off...)
• enabling pupils to appear self-confident

Obv, plenty of state schools are better at these things than many private schools. It varies school by school.

Thanks everyone for your input.

It does sound like I am perhaps being a bit judgey - I will go do the open days and report back (so you lot can put me right) :)

Right - now where can I go to talk about cupcakes....

So you are willing to send your DS to a school where 80% of the intake don't make min of 5 Highers?

Is this based on the total intake of students at reception compared to number that finish at highers? Even so, I would sooner take the non-selective private over the state. Attitudes of parents and pupils will influence your DS.

Take the 80% pass selective school, with the 50% non-selective as the fall back. These schools will prepare your DS for uni if that's what he wants.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to the Sutton report. Things will change by the time your DS gets to the age of choosing courses/uni and if you are in Scotland then the Oxbridge debate is muddied by fees and of course you have excellent universities in Scotland.

I am a product of comprehensive and local A-level college education. I went to a Russell group uni. I was in the minority. Smarter friends fell by the educational wayside. No guidance was given to choice of GCSEs or A-Levels, or uni. Things may have changed now. However, I have chosen to privately educate my DS. I want subject choice (classics, languages etc...), better facilities, smaller class sizes, extra curricular activities, guidance with schools post 13. These are the things you do get with private education that unfortunately state are not always in a position to provide.

If the money is in a trust and you can only access it to pay for private schools, then I'd go for it. Bet you'd love the sports and arts facilities on offer, altho I agree that he'll probably do well academically anywhere

We turned down my parents offer but because it was not in a trust, so it isn't a question of 'use it or lose it'. I'm hoping they'll pay for uni instead, as our family circs are such that it's an 'either/or', although of course that depends on their circumstances in 10 years time. I might ask for sixth form at private though, as I'm expecting them to sail through the GCSE's when teaching doesn't matter all that much, but A level does need more exam technique etc.

I was a child that moved into a 'good' state primary in Scotland. I was bullied badly and hated it. Even at the age of 4, I hated it. No one was stretched academically, facilities were lacking, classes sizes huge. I was utterly miserable, had no confidence, was self-harming at the age of 7 as a cry for attention.

I then, coincidentally, moved country with my parents and was placed in a small and fairly average private international school at the company's expense. The difference was amazing. The classes smaller, so many more opportunities, nice people, interesting lessons and trips.

In the year that I was there (I susequently returned to the crap state school) everything changed for me. I developed confidence and realised that I wasn't odd, the bullies were.

I honestly wholeheartedly believe that I wouldn't be where I am today (good uni, good career, moved out of small town to London) if I hadn't had that chance. Part of me still resents my parents for not putting me into a private school when we returned (they had the money but decided not to) as I believe I'd have again done much better. I'd say 10 - 15% of my original P1 class went to uni.

Please, please, don't turn down this opportunity without real consideration and further exploration. It could be a huge life changing opportunity for your child.

Having used both systems, just remember that with a private or inde school, you are there by invitation, not by right. So, if you aren't going to make the grade you will be asked to leave/manouvered into doing so. This is how private/inde keep their results consistently high. Plus of course, you have to factor in that people who are prepared to pay for education generally care passionately and don't want to see their investment go down the proverbial drain.

Before anyone leaps on me, no I'm not implying state educated children have parents who don't care.

I'm in the 'grades are the least of my worries' bunch. Finding a school where my kid thrives is much more important for me which is why neither of my kids go to local schools even though they are highly sought after for out-of-catchment places.

Have you been to visit any of these schools?

IME it is much easier to enrich/supplement at home during the primary years so I might also be tempted to say 'how about state primary but expensive fancy secondary?'

Holly - in my experience, it is only the super selective independents, desperate to get into the top 50 who ask pupils to leave. I'm avoiding those like the plague and going for a not-so-selective with all the extra curricular enhancements anyone could wish for. They have said they are just as proud of the not so clever child getting 5 GCSE's at grade C as they are of the super gifted ones getting 12 A* and that is what matters to me.

I do agree with you totally BigBird that thriving, having the whole child happily educated is so much more important than grades alone.

Most independents these days do have a range of families from Earls to Taxi Drivers and are all the better for it. There aren't many that are totally elite any longer, thank goodness.

StripeyBear I agree absolutely, being the "poor one" could cause problems. And it is obvious IMO. It didn't affect me. I did however ask to leave the school as I never really felt like I fitted in. It was more the general ethos than simply being about money though.

I'll put my cards on the table, I wouldn't send my own children to a private school as I am opposed to them on principle, and I feel the privileged view you get of the world there is not the "real world". Not for me at least.

I am very aware that this is my personal view however, and you're not interested in private vs state arguments! I was trying to be fair and non-prejudiced in my earlier posts, and just let you know my experiences in case it's helpful!

Stripey I think you are working yourself into a bit of a lather about this and making it impossible to make a rational decision.
From what you've said your DS is very young and of course at this stage the thought of him travelling to school or being turned into a brat by his environment seems a ghastly prospect. By the time he's 13 you may have a very different outlook and your DS's abilities and interests will be much clearer.

As others have said, the majority of private schools are not full of spoilt brats. Those schools exist but they are not the norm. Most private schools are full of middle class kids with professional parents who work jolly hard and live frugally to pay the fees. Anyway, you're not thinking of boarding, so your influence at home should be the one which keeps his feet on the ground.

Not all private schools are better than state schools - fact. Some private schools are a lot better than most state schools - fact. You can only decide by visiting them and seeing what they offer in addition to academics.

If you're still not sure perhaps agree that DS goes to your local primary, but reserve the option to go private at 7 or 11 when you will have much more information to hand. At the age of 5 or 6 I don't think there is such a big differential between a good state and a decent prep school as there is later on.

Try not to be prejudiced one way or the other about state v private - choose the school which is best for your child.

OP if you feel strongly, you just need to say no thank you. We offered to pay for our neice's education and her parents refused. No bad feelings on anyone's part.

I might have been a bit suprised though if they'd asked for the cash ...

But please don't worry that private school would turn your DC into a brat. School IMVHO can't turn a child into anyhting. A child's main influence is and should be his/her family. FWIW I had six teenaged private schooled posh girls over night last night and they were delightful.

do you have to make the decision now??

can you let him go to state non-private pre-school, and possibly primary...and see how he gets on? with a view to switching to private-ed if you/he are not happy?

can it be an open offer from In-laws?

My DD went to a state school until we moved house then she started in a private school in year 6. She is now in year 10 and she has developed educationally beyond our widest dreams. She is a quiet girl and in a big class in state school she was lost but with smaller class sizes and a lot of encouragement she is now one of the top pupils in her year.
I would suggest starting him in state school with a view to moving him if you think this would benefit him educationally. At the end of the day how your son is educated is up to you and you alone.

I think you should take up their offer. I would. My hubby works in the city, nearly everyone he works with is privately educated and most of them Oxbridge graduates. They all get their jobs because they 'know' the right people, as a result of their education. It's not about grades it's about being well connected. I know it's an incredibly unpopular notion but it's still the reality in the uk. My husband went to state school and an ex poly uni... He just happens to be incredibly lucky, and highly skilled but he would agree with my opinion. We won't be privately educating our kids, we can't afford it, but we would if we could.

Yanbu. Well done for thinking things through logically.

If there is a better alternative to what is free then yes take it!!