to be pissed off at school for telling DD (5) about Baby Jesus?

[Kalemu]

We don't want religion anywhere near our house, one of the main reasons we chose to send our DD to state school instead of a CoFE school. Imagine my surprise when she came home with a Baby Jesus picture book and singing about the Baby King. This makes me very mad - it's not like we want to keep her in a bubble, but I wanted to have told her the different religion when she was a bit older.

Thinking of writing to the headteacher to let him know our thoughts, and to demand that we're informed next time they plan to talk about religious stuff in class. Do you think AIBU?

Dione, I don't think that's really true these days. People I know of all and no religions still celebrate Christmas. We use the name Christmas because it's traditional in this country and understood by all, but it really has nothing to do with baby Jesus for many of us. For Christians, it's about celebrating Jesus' birth. For many people it's just about celebrating midwinter.
I don't think it's appropriate to try to indoctrinate preschoolers into your personal interpretation of Christmas. I don't attend church run toddler groups exactly because I want to avoid this sort of thing. There were people there from all sorts of religions who still celebrate Christmas from a social and not religious point of view.

Yabu.

She will hear about all kinds of religions as she goes through school.

It's topical what with Christmas being only a few days away. Don't demand things from the school,they will laugh about you I'm the staff room.

She didn't have to explain Christmas at all, previous years we've just sung Jingle Bells etc.

There is a difference between education and indoctrination. Education is "Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus at Christmas", indoctrination is "Jesus was born in a stable at Christmas and that's why we all celebrate". Think OP needs to find out which is happening at her school and see whether or not she wants to withdraw her child from those parts of school. She is absolutely entitled to demand that withdrawal from the school if she wants to.

I have some sympathy Kalemu as I remember how shocked my American husband was when DS1 was 5 and came home clutching his prize from the Christmas party - a traditional story about the baby Jesus.

I also sympathise with the fact that you had wanted to wait longer to discuss the different religions - you hadn't realised what the whole primary school leadup to Christmas was like.

I think it might be sensible to wait a while until your shock has subsided (it's good that you vented here first and a pity that others seem to be enjoying stoking your anger) then ask for an appointment with the head in January. You have the right to have your child excused from Religious Education lessons, and that will be the offer that is made to you.

It's hard when you are told to take your child out of a system but you feel a system is wrong. I felt the same about the quality of the food at school - luckily Jamie Oliver was there to take the heat for me! You'll have realised that the law is on religion's side in this country, so you would have to join a political campaign group to have any realistic chance of changing the system (and you wouldn't achieve that change whilst your child is in primary).

A really good teacher and head will treat it as a professional challenge to accommodate your views without prejudicing your child.

I haven't read all the replies but YABU. I'm not Christian, nor a member of any other mainstream belief system, but I understand that we live in a multicultural society and that schools are required by the National Curriculum to educate our children about different cultures and belief systems. The easiest way to do this with young children is through songs and stories.

Now, if she was coming home proclaiming that Jesus was the only way then you might have a case!

Bleedingheart - I was a teachers' nightmare when it came to bible stories. I remember at the ripe old age of 6 saying that it all sounded very silly and quite impossible. I then got chosen to write the class prayer for the carol concert, which amused my atheist mum no end.

So you want the school not to mention Christmas - all children need a rounded education. I'm Christian and take dc to church, but I also tell them that dh and I believe but their grandads on both sides don't so dh and I are happy for them to decide. Okay dtds are 16mo and too young but my 4.5yo knows not everyone believes and that there are other religions. Just because I am Christian, I would not get cross if school taught her about other faiths - in fact I would be disappointed if they didn't as I think acceptance and understanding are essential.

All it needs is the sentence, mummy and daddy don't believe in that but yes some people do. Which is what you said you did, so what's the problem?

dd1's teacher told them they weren't allowed chocolate bars in pack lunches but they can have choc biscuits like a penguin. I don't want dd to have chocolate everyday so I told her just because her teacher said she could have that, in our house it's a treat and not something that goes in a packed lunch. They get told stuff at school that isn't how you want to do things, it's how you deal with it that's important.

You best leave your TV off and avoid going out in public at all until the New Year then op.

In case someone mentions THE BABY JESUS

Catkind, I didn't realize that the story teller was trying to indoctrinate the children.

What did she do? And why didn't you say anything?

Blimey OP, lighten up. Sounds like a barrel of laughs in your house!

I think it's unrealistic to expect state schools not to cover the Christian stories as they are such an ingrained part of our culture, whether we like it or not

but I think we should aim to get to a point where they are teaching "Christians believe that......" rather than presenting it as fact (because it isn't).

and I am happy to watch my children in the nativity play just as I would be happy to see them in The Three Little Pigs or Jack and the Beanstalk. I make sure my own children are well aware of the status of the nativity story in relation to the known facts and the beliefs of their parents, of Christians etc. It's the dressing up of myth as fact that many of us find offensive.

OP you sound rather silly and hysterical, is it just Christianity you object to your DD knowing about or all religions? Like it or not, religion has a big part to play all over the world in world events and the motivations of people's actions that cause them, it isn't possible to raise your DD without her having knowledge about religion unless you want her to be ignorant, I would have thought a 5 year old is ready to be introduced to the concept of religion and that some people believe in Jesus, some in Mohammed and some in nothing at all among all other different belief systems. She doesn't need to know it all in great detail just now but you need to start somewhere.

OP do you wear a red armband and a long coat as well?

C of E schools are more of an issue. My DC comes home thinking that everyone believes in Jesus going up to heaven or whatever - after all, all the teachers talk of it as an obvious fact. Whereas in fact only a small minority of people in this country believe it, and C of E schools are enclaves for those people. For a lot of people, especially rural, avoiding a C of E school would mean a long journey every day (and even then the school might be full).

Dione, I'd describe it as indoctrination anyway. "Here's a story about the baby Jesus" okay. "We celebrate Christmas because baby Jesus was born etc etc ... let's all sing happy birthday to Jesus" is too much like indoctrination for me.

Didn't say anything cos none of the children were listening by that point anyway. Prob because other parents felt like me and we stopped trying to hold them in check Noone joined in the happy birthday either, after much enthusiasm for previous singing. I think we voted with our feet.
I was particularly as this has up to now been a carefully neutral setting. No overtly christian carols for example.

And anyway even people who are brought up as a Christian and told that the stories in the bible DID happen, well very few adults actually believe that it really did happen. It doesn't really influence what you believe.
I would say that I am Christian, we go to church every couple of months, I send DS to a CofE school, partly because its a very good school and partly because I want him to have a Christian education. But I don't believe that Jesus was the son of God, I think he was probably a bit of a nutter, it's been historically proven they Mary and Joseph didn't travel to Bethlehem when the bible says he did. In fact most of what the bible says has been proven to be rubbish.
I am Christian because I believe in the principals it teaches, it teaches us to be kind and good people, if I'm having a rough time I go to church and it helps me to gain perspective on things and to make me see how blessed I am.
It does not matter what people's actual beliefs are, if you look at the principals of all religions they're all just saying the same...that we need to be good people. What's the harm in children learning about that?

Catkind, if you consider such story telling indoctrination how do you deal with it in primary school? Do you remove your DC from Nativity plays and carol singing?

Dione, I don't consider the storytelling indoctrination per se, it's when you tell the children the story is true I feel it crosses the line. I meant, "here's a story about the baby Jesus" I wouldn't mind, I would cringe but let my son take part in a nativity for example, as long as he didn't have to pray or anything.

My son isn't at school yet, depends where he gets in. All our choices are non-denom, two of them present everything in a neutral "some people believe", "here's a Christian story about xxx" way that I'm happy with; the third I wasn't so convinced and would have to go and discuss with the head about what exactly we'd need to withdraw him from.

I don't like the idea of excluding children from things, but may feel we have to for a year or two until we think he's old enough to understand that teachers aren't always right. Carol singing is particularly a difficult one, as I love singing and so do the children. So I think we'd prob just swallow that one. I wish they could sing non-religious songs instead though.

this kind of thing is just dreadfully dull. Life is far too short to be worrying about all this.

I'm an atheist (or I would be if I could muster up the energy to even care whether there's a god). Did I gnash my teeth over DS2 being a donkey in the nursery nativity (and singing about baby cheesus)? No. I treat it as a 'some people believe...' situation and leave it at that. I don't get annoyed when my sister sends the kids presents for Eid either, or when the nursery does stiff for Diwalli.

It's all just a fun way to learn about different religions and to celebrate difference. I don't think any of it is likely to make the kids religious. Indeed, catholic schooling/weekly mass attendance has only managed to make DH deeply apathetic about religion (and exP/DS1's dad is very much an athiest despite catholic schooling and regular attendance at mass until he was old enough to refuse).

We do celebrate an entirely cultural Christmas in our house. We are happy for the kids to understand what some people are celebrating at Christmas, but it's not what we're doing.

Getting irate about things like this is probably the best way to make your kids take up incredibly fundamentalist religion as the rebel against your militant atheism at home.

catlin agree. Also thanks to everyone who posted interesting links and gave constructive advice.

I think I might order this www.amazon.com/Raising-Freethinkers-Practical-Parenting-Beyond/dp/0814410960 (although not from Amazon)

Shit on a stick, there are some seriously uptight people on mumsnet.

I'm not religious and I'm more than happy for my DS to learn about other religions so that he understands that different people have different beliefs and that its a good thing.

I can't believe people there are actually some people clutching their pearls over their kids learning about Baby Jesus at "Christmas".

catkind my DS is in a CofE school and last week they did 'carol singing' which were...

• away in a manger (obviously religious)

• jingle bells
• we wish you a merry christmas
• Rudolph the red nose reindeer
• twinkle twinkle little star (not even a Xmas song!)

Maybe they get more religious as they get older, I'm not sure. But I would guess that even if a CofE school is doing primarily non religious christmas carols I doubt that you DC will be.

I would describe myself as a questioning Christian. Like PoppyPrincess I don't believe in all the bible stories - the virgin birth for instance. I think in a rational and analytical way and take some of the stories with a pinch of salt, but I agree with the basic principles and the teaching of being nice to people.

I can't help but get the impression on here that some of the extreme atheists are afraid of any kind of religion. Not all Christians are religious zealots. All the ones I know think the way I do and accept that some people believe in God, some don't know and some don't at all. None of us would dream of trying to "convert" anyone or shove religion down their throats. I feel it is unfair that all Christians should be tarred with the same brush.