To be concerned that the shooter in the US keeps being referred to as Aspergers

[pingu2209]

This worries me, I feel like the press are referring to the shooter's Aspergers are the reason for him flipping out and killing the children and teachers. He clearly had mental issues but Aspergers is not likely to be the issue.

There are so many people with Aspergers or are on the autistic spectrum but this does not go hand in hand with mental issues in terms of agression.

I feel this could end up in a nasty backlash.

Lydia I think you are using the term 'severe' autism differently. By severe autism I mean someone without capacity. Someone without the daily living skills to prepare themselves a meal. Someone who is incapable of planning a murderous rampage because they do not possess capacity to plan anything, they do not understand what a gun does or is, they have no hatred of anyone.

Yes this person might show challenging behaviours such as biting themselvrs or hitting out when upset but they are not capable of carrying out a gun toting murder any more than a frustrated tantruming toddler is. That's why intention and capacity is extremely important.

Please do not suggest that these people are kept in secure environments because they're some sort of threat. When ds1 goes somewhere the first thing I check is whether there are locked doors, not because I think he might get out and damage people, because I think he might get out and drown or be run over.

I hate that some see people like ds1 as dangerous because through lack of easy ability to communicate (he has no speech) he sometimes shows challenging behaviours ( only ever towards those he trusts though). Just like a toddler, and for the same reasons.

He is no danger to the public at all. They are a danger to him (so far he's only been taunted and sworn at, none of which he notices, but a classmate did have bricks thrown at him).

Oh yes it is very important that the general ignorant masses have some understanding of the difference between challenging behaviours and murderous violence.

Lydia..someone with severe autism 'getting frustrated and lashing out' is very different to someone cold bloodedly planning a killing spree.

More nonsense spouted by someone who claims to work with people with autism

ladybeagle,please reconsider what you said there. A child with autism or AS 'Never has a chance' of not becoming a killer if their parents are panicking about something and have weapons? It is in no way as clear cut as that.

I agree with what lydia678 is saying.
Yes, I know personally of people with autism, who wouldnt hurt a fly. Actually, they would get upset if they hurt a fly.
But that does not mean that there are not others like the young man I mentioned.

He is very angry, and quite honestly, nobody can blame him for that. I dont want to go into details, but the system, or maybe an individual got things worng, and his life went in a direction that it shouldnt have gone in.
His life has been quite tragic.
He is also upset, sad, lonely, looking for love. All things that may not be resolved.

And yes, I know there are people on here who say, that does not mean he will do mass murder. Well no, he might not. And also, those same people will say, that if he did, then it was not his Aspergers.

But those same people, do not also want to end up being Mrs Lanza.

As far 'I know there is a spectrum,I've tutored some great kids with Aspergers who wouldn't hurt a fly.'

That is extremely offensive, my DD is at the severe end of the spectrum and wouldn't hurt a fly.

Am going to step away for this thread...too much personal stuff going on to get involved in inevitable bunfight

I support people with autism. Both in rl,and on MN. I was a volunteer for 1 for 3 years.

I have to say, that on MN, I have been for instance on the education boards. And there are a couple of postes on there that defend teachers, almost come what may.

I have been on the private education boards, and again, there are a couple of posters on there, that defend private education, almost come what may.

But, on here , if that is what a couple of posters are doing, just please bear the above in mind.

Gary McKinnon is not a valid argument in anyway whatsoever. It's using the Texas Sharp Shooter of logical fallacies.
Gary McKinnon did what he did because he is AS. He is more likely to be obsessed with something, in this case finding proof of alien existence. He is quiet, socially inept, and far less likely to go out and shoot anyone than a number of people on the internet (as an example). It's an irrelavancy.

saintlyjimjams, from what you have written, I believe you when you say he is no danger to the public at all. He doesnt sound like he is to me, in the slightest.

Agree with what Dawndonna said as well.

I understand people getting offended.
I think there are only a tiny minority of people with Aspergers who would do something like the young man did in America.
And it would be horrid if there was a backlash against people with autism and Aspergers in general.
fwiw, I dont think there will be.

Yes fanjo - that's what I was trying to explain - that it's hugely offensive to see those with 'mild' autism as being capable if love and those with severe as being animals that need to be locked up. And shows extreme ignorance about what severe autism actually IS. My son with severe autism loves and trusts people. He's affectionate and friendly. He cried when his friend died (which is why I said earlier I had been surprised he had an understanding of death). Yes he's severely autistic but he is not devoid of emotion.

If we moveback to discussing those who are higher functioning and who would be capable (unlike those like my son) of carrying out a murderous rampage it's important up bear a few things on mind.

1. school killings are usually planned, in detail for many years
2. they often target (in the planning stage at least - even if the event is random) the popular kids, the sports stars
3. they are carried out by those who are isolated in some way

Now having AS can indeed lead to social isolation but it's nonsense to blame that on the person with AS without looking at how or why. The killer on this case was not isolated by peers because he was difficult or aggressive or angry. He was described a extremely shy by classmates, he sounds practically mute in school. If he was isolated it was not because he was acting out a whole series of anti social behaviours.

I have seen kids with AS mocked and teased and excluded by their classmates. It's very rate that this is because the person with AS is exhibiting anti social behaviours (occasionally it can be), usuallynit is because they are socially gauche or uncool. If we're going up include AS as a 'reason' then you have to look at the specifics of how the AS led to isolation. I also know people with AS who have been very accepted by their group. You have to look at the individual within their community and their community's reaction to them.

The person MAY have had AS (that's not clear although it sounds possible) but you can't ignore the rest - this was a quiet (very) boy, described as intelligent. Odd yes, but how did he move from that to isolated enough to kill those within his community. Saying 'because he had AS is not an explanation in the way 'he was having a psychotic episode' would be.

I hope me adding a MH issue into the mix isn't misunderstood - I'm talking purely about a psychotic episode being an explanation in the way 'AS' isn't.

I know several people with aspergers - all adults.

One of them has severe aspergers. He is gentle, if he says the word 'damn' he will apologise for swearing in front of a lady. He sometimes gets frustrated but although you can see his frustration he is never violent. He has obsessions and has raised a huge amount for charity - he always has a new cause.

Another has mild aspergers, and uses this as a reason for being a violent petty criminal. He blames every crime he commits on that he has aspergers.

It's no different to comparing 2 people without aspergers. One is kind, honest and caring. The other isn't.

all these words are so negative goth nerd autistic as if what he had wore was wrong, what he DID was wrong very wrong but it was in spite of these things not because of them , It is just so tragic those poor children

Don't condem a whole group of people because of te actions of one person, what if the killer had been a darker skin colour would people like Lydia say such things about darker people, it seems that disability seems fair cop. This man committed the horrendous crimes, not because he had Autism but he was a deeply disturbed man, could be any person with or without Autism. There are deeply disturbed people without Autism who commit terribly crimes, just this killer happened to have Autism

SantasBigBaubles

I don't see why my comment was so shocking to you? In mnay schools goth, especially boy goths, are given a hellish time by their peers. You are unlikely to find goths surrounded by popularity, acceptance and tolerance. They are far more likely to esperience bullying and rejection. The same, sadly, can sometimes be said for individuals on the autistic spectrum, especially those at the high functioning end.

It's not a case of 'goth' or 'aspergers' being a reason for the killing but more a case of 'goth' or 'aspergers' being a possible contributor to what made other individuals in the boy's life make him lonely, isolated and angry.

Anders Brevik went through a full psychological assessment. The findings were that there is nothing wrong with him. He is neurotypical. Clearly being NT makes people extremely violent mass murders.

manic The problem with saying that it probably contributed is that it tends to make things worse for other kids who fit into that box. Unfortunately a huge amount of people cannot see beyond Goth = mass murderer.

It may well be that in some cases being a goth does isolate children, and that may motivate them to kill. But it's not a definite correlation, and it also doesn't take into account the chicken and egg situation that it actually is. Eg. is the child isolated because they are a goth, or are they a goth because they are isolated? And of course not all goths are isolated. In some cases getting into the goth scene can actually make kids less isolated.

So while it could be a contributory factor, we have no way of knowing yet, or in fact ever. And unfortunately the newspapers reporting him being a goth does tend to come across as them saying, "well that explains it". And even if they don't mean it that way suspends disbelief many people will read it that way. Which will then affect other goth children.

How do I know? Because I was at school at the time of the Columbine massacre. I experienced people's reactions to finding out a "goth" had killed classmates.

In 2008 a girl was killed in this country for being a goth, RIP Sophie Lancaster. Some people just can't handle folk who are different from their own perceived majority, just like racism, homophobia, antisemitism, etc It's fear of the unknown & ignorance. The reporting on this case only adds fuel to their misguided fires.

they are also saying he was a home schooled loner on dm.

huge elephant in the room,like it or not.Mind altering drugs , pharmaceutical companies.

Ambersocks they are saying that about my ASD home ed ds in our community.

I took some horrible 'parental concern' comments last night from people who should know better.

They are of course conveniently forgetting who never invited him to parties, excluded his mum constantly, let their children bullyhim mercilessly, and who else allowed that, refused him the differentiation he needed to succeed educationally, insisted that he would always face violence and needed to learn how to handle it, and in the end sent him home as ?mentally unfit? (suicidal not violent) as easier than excluding those battering him. They are having great fun with me being a LP as well.

They are all bloody fools. The saddest thing is I spend so much time teaching my ds cause and effect and empathy. It seems it?s them that need teaching it.

Concerns should centre around the fact that he was a loner. As a society, we tend to shun anyone who is different, a bit weird, not sociable, so this can become a downward spiral. Not all loners are mass murderers, but being a loner can make you lose perspective, lose empathy with people, have low self-esteem and depression steps in. Again, that isn't to imply that people with depression are mass murderers, just to illustrate that actions and views of society don't help.

Re Gary McKinnon - he did was he did because he could.

"but being a loner can make you lose perspective, lose empathy with people, have low self-esteem and depression steps in"

That depends on whether you are a loner through choice or not surely? If it is chosen then why would it cause depression and low self esteem?

Being shunned by society can absolutely cause those things.