To think there should be a site called "Racist Mumsnet"

[GothAnneGeddes]

That way, all the bigots who've been cluttering up Mumsnet of late could post there and spare the rest of us from reading their biogoted stupidity.

AIBU?

She did not immediately apologise and ask why it was offence. She got all defensive and arsey about people not being able to use whatever language they liked. She likened her own faux pas to a situation where the idiot offended did not accept what he had said was racist....which is why emotions ran high

taka, if I've remembered incorrectly, I apologise. I came away with the impression she had had done so and got a massive kicking. I certainly remember that there was a huge amount of sneering and disbelief she didn't know.

But it's that being hung up on language and leaping to take angry offence before establishing that offence was properly, coldly, dangerously intended that just solidifies attitudes because it did not lead to debate, just mob-like name calling.

The thing about racism is that it isn't a belief that you can defend as being a bit of diversity. You've got to challenge and educate

It's one of those things that if you think that way you shouldn't say it out loud or in print. There is an offence known as racially or religiously intentional harassment, alarm or distress. I'm not saying that some of the posts either now or in the past would have fallen into the description. One day they might though and someone may take action. Except it'll be MN they take action with and not the posters

Silver
Some people seem to think that they can enjoy other cultures but still not accept the people who bring them. Oriental food comes to mind. I would certainly call that racist.
I have good friends who come from India - one of them would be well-known to you from frequent TV appearances. They are known to say in private that immigration from the sub-continent should be stopped because it is changing Britain "and it's no longer what we came here for". Is that racist or just selfish? Having decided that, if I was to say that I agree with them (I haven't BTW) would that make me any different?
These things are not always easy.

Jins, I absolutely agree. But those racists seem, here, to so ffar be few and far between.

I had a neighbour in London who became a friend. She used to introduce me to people as her 'Jewish friend' and it sometimes felt that I was more important to her because if my ethnicity than who u was. She often took offence on my behalf, for example, after a big party, shouting at a lad who offered to make everyone bacon sandwiches; I dropped her in the end because she was obsessed with it. She hadn't travelled much and I felt like an exotic feather in her cap, which frankly was patronising and racist (jn the sense if seeing the ethnicity instead of the person.)

Was that over sensitive? Was she just well-meaning? Is that kind of religion/colour before person thinking as dangerous as hatred? I'd live other views on this.

I

Multiculturalism isn't about all the wonderful things you get to eat and wear and enjoy -- isn't that a bit self-absorbed?

It's about the people behind all those differences... it's about having a diverse and tolerant society, where there isn't just one way of life or one set of customs... where people from all over the world can live and get along and contribute different things to society. It's about letting people maintain their own customs and beliefs (to the greatest extent possible) without having to abandon them and become something totally different.

Preferring multiculturalism is not about deriding Britishness or white British culture or what have you, it's just recognising that today there are many different cultures in the country and being tolerant of them.

I honestly don't understand why this is controversial in some quarters. I do think that saying you are against multiculturalism is in effect being prejudiced, because you are basically saying anyone who comes to the UK has to abandon their culture and be British -- and why would you say that, unless you felt their culture was inferior or dangerous or somehow 'bad'? If you have no problem with their culture, why do you care if they keep it?

I think you can have a sensible conversation about the limits of multiculturalism (e.g., I don't think FGM should be allowed in the UK) but to be against the basic principle of it is very troubling to me.

Sallying, exactly!! I hesitate to say it's not black and White for fear

x-post -- Silver, frankly, your friend was just a loon. Seriously, she used to introduce you as her Jewish friend??? That's bonkers.

I wouldn't say what she was doing was just as dangerous as hatred, but it was certainly as stupid.

think i will keep my gob shut!

dreaming
you are basically saying anyone who comes to the UK has to abandon their culture and be British
How do you think speaking English comes into this? It is said (I haven't personally experienced it) that some immigrants deliberately choose not to learn English and live within closed communities where it's not used.

Sallying, exactly!! I hesitate to say it's not black and white for fear offending .

Is that attitude something you discuss with your friends? I remember an Induan guy at school (international school, 1980s) telling an American mother not to offer his driver a sandwich. She was horrified that she had insulted him and he said no, that he was low caste and would feel really uncomfortable.

Because we were all friends, we had a debate about the many nuances and layers of that situation - thing did become heated but it was interesting to debate.

Who would have been 'right' I wonder? The mum who was a peace activist and appalled? The proud Indian who felt his culture was not open to western censure? The point was, all opinions were heard.

That, to me, is a multicultural society. And I'm still interested in other definitions because it often seems to me that much misunderstanding stems from different definitions.

I think that the threads discussing multiculturalism etc on MN do bring the racists out of the woodwork. I rarely see some of them post on any other threads.

I like to see them, so I know who to avoid.

Stuffing
Do YOU think that racism is absolute, and there are no shades in between?

I do think there are shades in between,I think a lot of racism stems from fear and ignorance.

I can usually tell the difference between someone who wants to debate immigration and someone who is an out and out racist though.

What do you think about my Indian friends I quoted above?

Stuffing,

Interesting point and I agree about fear and ignorance.

But don't you think that it works to engage in debate (not name-calling or derision) with such people because if they are decent and with a heart they will listen and think about your viewpoint.

I worry that, like Mornington Crescent, going straight to calling someone a cunt or telling them to fuck off to the BNP, just leaves that person feeling what the hell was all that about? What did I possibly say that was so wrong? I will never understand what this new multicultural society is about etc.

Then along will come someone dangerous, while they are feeling wounded and upset, and start empathising and then before we know if, we'll have inadvertently sent someone straight into the arms of a far right organisation because they feel that there, they are understood.

Sally, all my Indian friends say the same thing!! And my Nigerian friends and my Afghan taxi drivers. They all read The Daily Mail as well. I don't know what to say about it because whatever you say it's wrong. On here, anyway.

Come on, people who spout stuff like 'all the criminals on crimewatch are black' which is virtually what someone had written on that thread, need to be called cunts.I wouldn't waste my breathe debating with bigots like that.

I fear this thread is about tge one i started, I do think it is a shame you can't have a debate about immigration without being called racist. I have experienced proper racism but discussing about the ethnic makeup of London or that we need proper controls on immigration is racist in the slightest. People jumping on the 'you're a racist' bandwagon is stopping a proper debate being had. It's a shame.

Your opening post was racist.

dining off quail eggs and unicorn hooves

That sounds great! We get our quail eggs from Wotton Farm. Where can we get the unicorn hooves and how do you cook them?

Disingenuous. You wrote a post saying you were "shocked" and thought immigration was too high, and your thread title demonstrated not only that you hadn't understood the statistics in the article properly, but that you don't truly grasp the fact that not all British people are white.

You want a cool, calm, balanced debate, write a cool, calm, balanced opening post.

Mrs DeVere, that's what we are talking about.

That someone might be scared and worried without being racists. That non whites and whites alike can have these feelings.

And that calling them racist without engaging and discussing why they feel that way may well have the consequences I alluded to earlier.

How would you define multicultural? In my experience, it means many things and I have spoken to people of all backgrounds who are opposed to it.