To think there should be a site called "Racist Mumsnet"

[GothAnneGeddes]

That way, all the bigots who've been cluttering up Mumsnet of late could post there and spare the rest of us from reading their biogoted stupidity.

AIBU?

BeyondStuffedWithXmassyGoodies - Facebook seems to intensify the view of idiots. Its all the sharing pictures with stupid racist messages on. Sexist too. I removed a lot of 'friends' after the whole 'not allowed to wear an England shirt during the world cup' stupidity, due to them posting ridiculous statements.

Patriotism turned to racism... nice

I see the logic of keeping racists around so we can all educate them to be not so racist. Except that in my experience racists are too dim to appreciate logic and no amount of explaining things to them in small words will change their minds. In which case, I'd rather they just fucked off somewhere.

You can be against immigration and not be racist. I mean, I guess, in theory. I guess it's just a coincidence that the kinds of immigration people are most against are the same ones that are dominated by non-Anglos.

I seriously hesitated to post here. It seems that each time the subject of multicultural Britain is discussed, the debate follows a predictable and frankly puerile pattern; a potentially tricky area is raised; posters weigh in and demonstrate their own multicultural credentials, reducing the debate to anecdotal one-upmanship; the OP's own ethnicity is then questioned, insulted and held up to racist childish ridicule; anyone who disagrees is told to join the BNP.

I realise that I may well have insulted the posters who do not shy away from difficult discussion, and for that I apologies. I do see, however, a hectoring, bullying and censorious tone that does not make for comfortable reading.

I've been beaten up, spat on, attacked and excluded for my race and background. was brought up in very different parts of the world, usually the only child of my ethnicity and religion at my school; I worry, reading the threads I have today that there is a dangerous assumption that all racists and cultural imperialists are white and British. Empirically, I know that's not the case.

Nor am I prepared to be called a racist by complete strangers on this site because I also think we need to have some adult discussions about some uncomfortable subjects.

I attended a recent conference where the UKBA stated they had no handle at all on the number of immigrants who are now in the UK; I am bemused as to how the desire to discuss this problem, its social and economic implications and potential solutions can be decried as racist?

In my own country, Belgium, we are also looking for solutions to legal and illegal immigration challenges. Strangely, it is the so-called liberals who want to debate and discuss, trying to get the Vlaamsblock and other right-wing organisations to open their eyes and change their views.

In reading some of these 'debates' I would really be afraid to sit down for such a discussion with people who would tell me 'you are a racist cunt, fuck off and join the BNP' if I raise the subject. Or that 'I'm glad I live in a non-white area, it's why I wouldn't leave London.'

Surely these attitudes are as bigoted and unenlightened as the ones we all wish to see extinct?

I agree with dreamingbohemian

Especially as a white, English speaking immigrant. Still get a bit of xenophobia, mostly get people assuming I will agree with their racist crap.

Erm, no!

silverbaubles. Good post and I totally agree with you.

But I think you're pissing in the wind to be honest. Any attempt at debate always ends with accusations of racism. And, to be fair, it does also encourage some genuinely bigoted people to come out of the woodwork.

For my part it's nothing to do with skin colour or nationality - it's purely about the numbers. And, right now, there's too many and every day I see examples of the damage its doing.

I don't believe for a minute that the official figure of 8.2million is accurate for London.

dreaming, I do think its a bit of an assumption to say that racists are too dim to appreciate logic.

The worst racists in history have been the ones with the intelligence to actually use logic and science to try and back up what they believe. (Trying not to invoke Godwin's Law here)

In my experience, racists are more likely simply not to have been exposed to challenges put to them in a way that they don't find threating and aren't directly confrontational. People tend to be less open to ideas, if they feel they are forced on them or they feel that it takes something away from them. They also tend to go along with everyone else they are around rather than question things themselves without others to also support those questions.

People are by their nature selfish, and often look to others for failings in their life. People look for targets, without logic and then build the logic around it, until it becomes 'fact'. The easy target is the one that everyone else in your community blames and its difficult to break that cycle. It takes time and is difficult because an attack on that idea becomes an attack on that community too.

I suppose you will get those who do ave very entrenched old fashioned views but not radical enough for BNP. My mum (Armenian immigrant of dark skin), dies not like multicultural Brtain and wanted to vote BNP until I helpfully told her tat they would vote to send her back to Armenia

I think the problem, Silver, is that not too many people start a thread about immigration saying things like 'We need to implement better enforcement policies so that our immigration policy is more effective' or 'We should review our immigration policy and see if it matches our available resources.' They just come on and complain that Britain is too multicultural, or all the shops now are halal, or there's too many people not speaking English.

I cannot tell you how many times I've had people complain to me about immigrants -- and I'm American! But you see, that makes me the okay kind of immigrant.

To me, if these people were really just thinking purely about a person's foreign status, they would see me as an immigrant and not say these things. The fact that they do is a pretty clear indication that they are not just thinking about foreignness.

A persons skin colour does not matter, it is how the behave as an individual that counts

But you'll still get people calling me a racist because I didn't want to wait for 15 minutes due to language problems at the tills. It could have been any other problem that caused the delay and I still wouldn't have wanted to wait that long but because I stated the reason I must be racist, impatient and aggressive

x-post with TeWis -- I see I'm not the only one getting these convos!

Red perhaps you are right. I don't know. I think all kinds of people can be prejudiced. I think to be properly racist, though, there is something missing upstairs. It's more than just ignorance, it's an actual refusal to consider reason.

But you'll still get people calling me a racist because I didn't want to wait for 15 minutes due to language problems at the tills.

Turn the tables though, and how would YOU feel?

My dd was fobbed off in an Asian grocers in Wembley. The store staff had poor english, she is white british. She asked them for something, they denied having it. It's happened to me on occasion too - where shop workers don't want the hassle of the language problems, and want rid of you asap.

I wouldn't say it was racist, but it's rather inconsiderate to say the least, and not something I would do, having been on the other side of it!

Silver and Nancy, my problem with these threads is that yes- what you says happens. But there are other posters who try to engage on the facts and the arguments, challenge politely, ask legitimate questions and provide links to evidence which doesn't support a certain worldview.

Those posters (and I hope I'm usually one of them, though I'm aware my frustration levels have become very high over the last few days) are roundly ignored by the posters you're talking about. It's beyond frustrating. I absolutely support people's right to an opinion, but if you're bringing an opinion to a discussion board shouldn't you be prepared to discuss it?

I've found many of the posters you mention to be just as rude and dismissive of my worldview and opinions as you accuse people here of being - at the same time as dismissing legitimate and polite challenge as irrelevant or wrong.

What particularly irks is when people ask for 'proof' of something and when evidence is provided or mentioned, it's ignored in favour of people saying 'but I've seen no proof!' It's lazy and frustrating. Debate works both ways - both sides have to be willing to actually discuss the issue.

Nancy, I agree, the numbers are concerning for everyone. Surely to be worried at the, for example, bogus student visa scams, is just plain common sense?

Redtoothbrush, I love what you wrote and yes, the sheep are almost as frightening as the charismatic ones. But I think fear is easier to address than (I hesitate to sound hysterical and say evil, but I'm sure you can think of a suitable synonym of that's too strong) the other.

Piglet - bless your mum, that was funny!

dreaming - yes, I think they would say things to you that would indicate it goes beyond the passport stamp - I'm Jewish and like the song, "she doesn't look Jewish at all" so I have been the recipient of some extraordinary views. I don't think for one moment that there is an ingrained distrust and dislike of different people. And not just in Britain.

I would be interested to discus exactly what we all mean by 'multicultural society' because I have seen some extraordinary interpretations of the phrase and if we all get aerated about something totally different, we'll be shrieking ourselves into hoarseness while the important conversations just don't happen.

Jessy, stick at it.

I posted an OP yesterday which was, in retrospect, foolish.

It was headlined " To find myself suddenly struggling to welcome gay marriage?".

I thought that the words implied that I knew that gay marriage should be welcomed but I was struggling to do more than accept it. After I had been called a homophobic cunt 30 times, a pleasant MN'er posted generously and thoughtfully in a way that helped me clear my thinking. It can be done.

Some of the "racist" threads on here seem to me to be started by people who are simply struggling to come to terms with our rapidly-changing world.

Jassy, at home, sometimes the people who claim to be enlightened are expressing a fashionable opinion that they know they MUST believe as a remember of a civilised society and so haven't spent any time researching and thinking for themselves why that opinion exists and why it should be held and whether it stands from year to year or decade to decade as the world changes.

there's also some mob mentality that seems to be that if you think someone is racist, you can close down the discussion by shouting loudest and rudest and the other people are too afraid of being (wilfully? I sometimes don't know) misunderstood to venture an opinion other than the standard line.

great idea ban anybody that dosent agree with the majority

the list of banning could be endless

i do find on MN if you do not word correctly and make the odd mistake it can be jumped on and completley scewered

i myself sometimes make sure that i explain things as best i can by running it through my brain before,othertimes i cant be arsed and things may be taken slightly of what i meant

so YABU to want to police peoples thoughts that maybe the dont see as the same as you and dosent make them wrong to think like that

mn is so pc sometimes

YABU. True diversity has to include views you don't like, not just charming ethnic festivals you can patronise with your 'inclusiveness'. If you get to pick and choose which bits are tolerated and which aren't it's not diversity, just right-on posturing.

One problem I see it that racism isn't necessarily absolute.

You have people (I hope the majority) who see no difference between races, and then you have the absolute pernicious racists like the BNP.

But I do meet people who seem to be somewhere on a scale between the two extremes. For instance people who live with and socialise with immigrants but are genuinely concerned that it's wrong for increasing numbers of incomers to be changing the face of their native country. I don't agree with this but I would feel very uncomfortable calling them racists.

right-on posturing
Damn, now I have poster-envy! THAT's what I meant!

Whilst I agree the views of many ate not pleasant I do often find those threads useful. Many point out things that I would never have considered, purely because I hadn't come across them, or just hadn't even considered it.
What I dislike is those that make out that there is something wrong about a thread/post but don't make it clear what the problem is. You can only learn from mistakes if someone highlights what you have done wrong.
I posted a thread a while back and I got rolly eyes, told that it wasn't worth the response etc- but I genuinely don't know what I did/said that wad wrong.

But Sallying, surely if what we are admiring about multi-ethnic society is all the amazing things we get to eat and wear and enjoy about the customs and cultures of our fellow world citizens, isn't it understandable that it's worrying to hear your own culture being derided and dismissed by right-on posturing (thank you!).

My OH is American, and an Anglophile so must be excused his puppy-like adoration of Britishness. He recently mentioned to a colleague how much he had adored his weekend, walking the dog in the woods and having a roast in the pub by a fire. He was told 'don't say that too loudly, they'll think you're a racist. They turned out to be an Asian colleague who luckily hooted with laughter and told the sensitive well-meaning liberal colleague not to be so dozy. But my DH did end up worried that someone might be offended by his admiring something that is seen by some as non-right-on and therefore racist.

Trainee, I saw one of those where a poster was flamed for using (I think I have this right, please correct me if not) the phrase half-caste and genuinely did not know it had been deemed racist. She immediately apologised and asked a bit more about why it was, and when it had ellen from general use. The abuse she was given was disproportionate.

Why on earth would anyone thing walking a dog in the woods and having a roast in a pub with a fire is racist? What on earth should you spend your weekend doing to not be considered racist?

There is always Stormfront