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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that I shouldn't have to swallow my principles to save the NHS money?

251 replies

Tollund · 12/12/2012 10:36

I was seen by a practice nurse this morning and prescribed antibiotics for my chest infection. When he wrote the prescription I said that if they were capsules with gelatine in them I couldn't take them and would need the medicine instead. He told me that he didn't know if they did or not and didn't have time to research it, and if I really couldn't bring myself to take them I'd have to ask the pharmacist what they would recommend. I've been here before so I said that they wouldn't prescribe anything and I'd end up having to come back to pick up yet another prescription. He said to go and see what they said but he wouldn't prescribe the medicine as it was more expensive. (I'm guessing he doesn't see a lot of Hindus and not sure how far he'd get suggesting that people should take things containing boiled up connective tissue and bones whether they've spent a lifetime avoiding them or not.)

So I went to the pharmacist and exactly what I had said would happen, happened and I've wasted over an hour trying to get them to liaise amongst themselves so I didn't physically need to run between the surgery and chemist to pick up prescriptions myself. (With a chest infection when it's -2!)

AIBU to think that the practice nurse was being a total arse and that I shouldn't be made to run around wasting time because he "was too busy" and clearly thought I was being stupid for not just taking the gelatine?

OP posts:
FelicityWasSanta · 12/12/2012 18:40

I agree Fred.

Also....

Veganism can be classed as a belief, but I don't think vegetarianism can.

A quick google search has confirmed my belief that this is bollocks!

chrismissymoomoomee · 12/12/2012 18:46

I don't mean legally, I have no idea about that, but I don't see how vegetarianism is a 'belief' rather than just a preference not to eat meat.

Vegtarianism still contributes to the deaths of animals, I also know a few 'vegetarians' who eat fish, I even know one who eats chicken. Vegans take nothing to do with any animal products because they are fundementally against animals being used to make food. Vegetarians choose not to eat some animal products but happily eat others.

RedToothbrush · 12/12/2012 18:52

But some Christians do this, some Jews do this, some Muslims do this

and some do something completely different when it comes to how they practise their religion.

OwlLady · 12/12/2012 18:55

isn't all this info included in that little big book they all look in when prescribing?
if not, maybe that's the problem

PumpkinPositive · 12/12/2012 19:06

I also know a few 'vegetarians' who eat fish, I even know one who eats chicken

Well, they're not vegetarians then, are they? Vegetarians don't eat meat (including fish).

FelicityWasSanta · 12/12/2012 19:07

I don't mean legally, I have no idea about that, but I don't see how vegetarianism is a 'belief' rather than just a preference not to eat meat.

Riiiight, so the OP is totally unreasonable to expect care and understanding from a HCP, but it's totally ok for you (and a bunch of other posters) to declare her precious, entitled and undeserving of special treatment because you don't agree with the seriousness of her belief.

helpyourself · 12/12/2012 19:07

It's incredibly simple OP. your principals don't allow you to eat meat and the NHS' budget is finite. Would you rather the extra money went to you or towards a hcps' wages, new hospital, more comfortable palliative care. Where would you place your need in the list of needs the NHS has to meet?

FelicityWasSanta · 12/12/2012 19:09

I also know a few 'vegetarians' who eat fish, I even know one who eats chicken

I also know Christians who commit adultery. It doesn't detract from the validness of the whole religion though does it?

chrismissymoomoomee · 12/12/2012 19:15

I never once said the OP was precious or entitled I don't think she should get special treatment though no.

I buy fair trade products wherever I can due to my morals, but I don't demand shops sell me the products at the same price as their own brand stuff, because its my choice based on my beliefs. I also don't agree with the ethics of some companies so I avoid their products but I go out out of my way to find alternatives, I don't expect anyone else to go out of their way or go against their policies because of my beliefs.

chrismissymoomoomee · 12/12/2012 19:22

I also know a few 'vegetarians' who eat fish, I even know one who eats chicken

I also know Christians who commit adultery. It doesn't detract from the validness of the whole religion though does it?

No, but I see you have chosen one sentence rather than taken that post as a whole.

FelicityWasSanta · 12/12/2012 19:27

I'm at it again but....

I don't expect anyone else to go out of their way or go against their policies because of my beliefs.

If anything the OP is asking the nurse to follow their own policies of discussing treatment fully with the patient and getting consent. She didn't at any point say - I should get the veggie tablets for free. She said the nurse should have discussed it properly with me and given me the options.

And the OP is correct the HCP should have done this.

chrismissymoomoomee · 12/12/2012 19:35

Xmas Grin I'm at it too -

He told me that he didn't know if they did or not and didn't have time to research it, and if I really couldn't bring myself to take them I'd have to ask the pharmacist

The nurse didn't now and told her where she could get advice from. Doctors and nurses refer people to specialists on subjects they don't really know about this is just an extention of that imo. He would have had to research every drug in the antibiotic to see what it contained before guaranteeing the OP it was Veggie. Would it have been better if he had a quick look, said they didn't contain animal products, prescribed them and then the OP discovered later on that they did contain some?

FelicityWasSanta · 12/12/2012 20:03

No, it would have been better if he had either known or looked it up!

It's unnaceptable to say he doesn't know what's in the medicine he's prescribing!

chrismissymoomoomee · 12/12/2012 20:12

There are thousands of different medicines that doctors and nurses prescribe, its ridiculous to think that they know whether each and every one is vegetarian or not.

Would you expect someone who works in a shop to know the exact contents of every product? Before foods had labels on them to say whether things were suitable for vegetarians would you have expected a shop assistant to go and research every ingrediant for you before you bought it?

I don't think that he should have spent half an hour looking up each ingredient to see if it complied with the OPs moral viewpoint and made every other patient run late , he pointed the OP in the right direction to get the information herself.

LeBFG · 12/12/2012 20:18

FelicityWasSanta is on a role.

I don't really believe OP really has the strong moral convictions she purports

That's outrageously rude and offensive.

The OP appears to have had a hard time on this thread because people have decided to take against her and vegetarianism as a whole.

  1. I can believe what I like. I'll justify it for you (you don't have to agree): OP has gone on a bit piously about being a strict veggie. I'm thinking to myself that to go to the extent of not taking gelatin pills means you're probably also interested in animal welfare and death etc enough to be a vegan...which she's not. She then admits her 'beliefs' stem from a rather extreme distaste for ingesting meat..which isn't the same as having 'strong moral convictions'.

  2. I have zero objections to veggieness - I was one for 12 years (I was strint'n'all) Hmm.

Redtooth - I get your point, and possibly to some point agree on a personal level. However, from a general health perspective we actually don't have to pander to every person's individual needs and desires, or even should do. Lines to have to be drawn etc. As some other poster says, conselling might be a more profitable line to go down.

Wrt costs and making veggie pills etc. This is a bit of red herring. I imagine if the political will was there, we'd all be chomping on veggie pills at no real extra cost. OP should be campaigning to kick-start pharma into making veggie pills...wonder how many MNers would support that one? Not as many as are defending her on here I suspect...because the issue just isn't that important to most people.

FelicityWasSanta · 12/12/2012 20:53

LeBFG, I said people have taken against vegetarianism - not neccersarily you. You seem to have taken against the OP, and, apparently me. But hey ho...

Moving on...

There are thousands of different medicines that doctors and nurses prescribe, its ridiculous to think that they know whether each and every one is vegetarian or not.

True, bit we're talking about amoxicillin here, hardly rare. And most laymen know the capsules contain gelatin. They should (and can) access the information quickly though.

Would you expect someone who works in a shop to know the exact contents of every product?

If it way medicine yes- and at the very least know how to look it up!

Before foods had labels on them to say whether things were suitable for vegetarians would you have expected a shop assistant to go and research every ingrediant for you before you bought it?

Red herring, the OP was asking for clarification - she knew enough to know the capsules probably weren't vegetarian. Also in a shop if you are unhappy with service you go elsewhere. If you have to do this with the NHS it wastes appointments and costs money- you should be able to rely on each appointment being high quality,

I don't think that he should have spent half an hour looking up each ingredient to see if it complied with the OPs moral viewpoint and made every other patient run late , he pointed the OP in the right direction to get the information herself.

Half an hour! One google search told me all I needed to know. Approximately 20seconds, the nurse should have had access to better reference material than me! His signposting was ineficient, if the OP gets advice from a pharmacist she will have to make another HCP appointment afterwards for a new script. This costs money.

Also, have you forgotten the OP was ill and vulnerable during all this?

GhostShip · 12/12/2012 20:56

Look, I'm a veggie, but I accept the medication I am given because I am very appreciative of the fact I'm being given it at a much lower price than if I were to buy it without the NHS.

It's something I have thought about, and it may seem hypocritical, but hey ho.

I'm not willing to take more money away from the NHS because of my lifestyle choices.

Your lifestyle choices shouldnt effect anyone else.

NightFallsFast · 12/12/2012 20:57

Personally I feel the HCP could have been more accommodating in this instance, however:

"It's unacceptable to say he doesn't know what's in the medicine he's prescribing! "

How can a HPC know every ingredient of every medication they prescribe. I've signed prescriptions for probably well over a hundred different medications today, all with many ingredients. Who's brain would remember all that as well as well as the interactions/dosage/contraindications etc and all the medical information?

The BNF contains the drug, the brand names, the dosage for different conditions and age groups, when you can't use it or are cautioned against using it and side effect, amongst other things. It's several hundred pages long. It doesn't contain complete ingredients list for every medication, though pharmacists can access this information.

To the person with the relative on roaccutane who's GP wouldn't prescribe it, no GPs in the country are meant to prescribe it. It's only available for consultants to prescribe as it requires careful monitoring and as it accumulates in the bones it cannot be prescribed for long periods.

PumpkinPositive · 12/12/2012 21:12

I don't mean legally, I have no idea about that, but I don't see how vegetarianism is a 'belief' rather than just a preference not to eat meat.

Among other things, vegetarianism can involve a belief in the sanctity of animal life and a desire not to exploit those lives for human gain. It's not just about preferring tofu over steak.

If you are someone who believes that killing animals for human exploitation is tantamount to murder, it makes little sense to characterise one's decision not to partake of animal products as a "preference". It is a profound moral belief.

We don't talk about "preferences" not to cannibalise each other (and to vegans there is no difference between eating an animal or a human being, irrespective of what distinctions current legislation make).

PumpkinPositive · 12/12/2012 21:15

(And to some vegans) that should read.

Whyyyy can't we edit posts???? Sad

PumpkinPositive · 12/12/2012 21:19

I'm not willing to take more money away from the NHS because of my lifestyle choices.

What IS a lifestyle choice though? Should we not treat smokers, drinkers, crisp eaters on the NHS? What about those who participate in risky sports?

chrismissymoomoomee · 12/12/2012 21:25

I missed where the OP said it was amoxicillin in particular. Capsules generally contain gelatin but he may not know offhand if the rest of the contents were suitable. We don't know the exact medical details of the OP either which the nurse would know so there may have been any number of reasons that the medicine wasn't suitable maybe they didn't have it in the correct strength for example.

If she was happy with information from google she could have done a 20 second search on her phone and showed him. I personally wouldn't be happy with a nurse getting an answer from google.

If a medical proffessional wasn't sure about something for me then I would rather they sent me to someone who did know. The pharmacy could have called and got a prescription sent through seeing as she had already been in and she could have popped back in the morning. NHS staff, especially at this time of year are under a lot of pressure the OP had a choice whether to go and seek out the exact madicine to fit her preference or take the one on offer is she was that ill and vulnerable then she would have taken the medicine on offer.

chrismissymoomoomee · 12/12/2012 21:31

Among other things, vegetarianism can involve a belief in the sanctity of animal life and a desire not to exploit those lives for human gain

But the animals lives are still being exploited to provide milk, eggs etc. Since its roughly 50/50 males to females being born and the females are needed to provide dairy products then it still means male animals are being killed because they aren't needed and farmers have to keep up with supplying females to provide products.

However the OP said upthread that it wasn't really a moral choice it was about childhood issues so its a bit of a side issue anyway.

samandi · 13/12/2012 08:54

when you have views of this strength - this is where my questioning was going Redtooth. I don't really believe OP really has the strong moral convictions she puports. Certainly not the equivalent of a religious person in any case

Plenty of "religious" people don't have particularly strong moral convictions. Plenty of them just do things because that's what they're told to do.

PumpkinPositive · 13/12/2012 08:56

But the animals lives are still being exploited to provide milk, eggs etc

Hence veganism. Or keeping your own poultry. Or justifying eating milk/eggs on the grounds that you are still taking steps to remove yourself from the animal consumption/exploitation treadmill, even if there is still more you could be doing. Or not having 100% total coherence between your various beliefs (few of us do, so why should vegetarians be any different?)

However the OP said upthread that it wasn't really a moral choice it was about childhood issues so its a bit of a side issue anyway.

Just as well I wasn't responding to that point then. Smile