to think that I shouldn't have to swallow my principles to save the NHS money?

[Tollund]

I was seen by a practice nurse this morning and prescribed antibiotics for my chest infection. When he wrote the prescription I said that if they were capsules with gelatine in them I couldn't take them and would need the medicine instead. He told me that he didn't know if they did or not and didn't have time to research it, and if I really couldn't bring myself to take them I'd have to ask the pharmacist what they would recommend. I've been here before so I said that they wouldn't prescribe anything and I'd end up having to come back to pick up yet another prescription. He said to go and see what they said but he wouldn't prescribe the medicine as it was more expensive. (I'm guessing he doesn't see a lot of Hindus and not sure how far he'd get suggesting that people should take things containing boiled up connective tissue and bones whether they've spent a lifetime avoiding them or not.)

So I went to the pharmacist and exactly what I had said would happen, happened and I've wasted over an hour trying to get them to liaise amongst themselves so I didn't physically need to run between the surgery and chemist to pick up prescriptions myself. (With a chest infection when it's -2!)

AIBU to think that the practice nurse was being a total arse and that I shouldn't be made to run around wasting time because he "was too busy" and clearly thought I was being stupid for not just taking the gelatine?

"But there will be lots and lots of situations where this does not happen - where there is no readily available and inexpensive alternative on offer" - Penelope I was referring to this, not saying that you made something up yourself. Sorry if it sounded like that! But there are no "animals getting it in the neck" or "price points" - I'm currently without any meds at all, and if I could pay 20p for no gelatin, I gladly would. If I could pay £20 and have something that hadn't been tested on animals I'd do that, but short of turning to homoeopathy, (which I'm sure in the eyes of the people shouting down vegetarian principles is an even bigger sin!) I'm a bit fricking stuck, aren't I?

Thanks again RedToothbrush for understanding and being fair.

And yes nickelbaby - why the hell do they persist in using gelatine when there are options, so many capsules are vegetarian friendly. Are they massively more expensive?

Sorry but vegetarianism is a life style choice and the NHS should not have to foot the bill. On the other hand this opens up a huge can of worms as there are lots of things that make people ill which come down to life style choices which cost the NHS (smoking, drinking, drug-taking to name a few)

You do have a choice.

You can choose a private gp to cater for your life choice

You can chose to ask for a private prescription

You can chose not to take the medication.

Prescription charges are made so medicine s accesable to all, its the cheapest medication possible to sort the medical issue sometimes that means you pay £7 for a medicine costing £1.50 sometimes it means you pay £7 for one costing £150. You are not baying for the actual medication but for the ability to get the medication your gp feels you need at the time you need it,with no risk that the medication would be to expensive for you to afford.

...when you have views of this strength - this is where my questioning was going Redtooth. I don't really believe OP really has the strong moral convictions she puports. Certainly not the equivalent of a religious person in any case. I do think you're right, however, that OP's aversion to meat is pretty extreme - I suppose the equivalent would be to ask how far the NHS go to accomodate preferences. I'm finding it hard thinking of an example - perhaps providing larger seats for obese people - providing a smoking area for patients who smoke - these are examples where the NHS may go out their way a little to provide for their needs but not excessively and often (rightly or wrongly) a but unwillingly.

I'd still like an answer to my question as to whether people who refuse capsules with gelatine are checking on all the ingredients to see if they were prepared from or using animal products.

"I don't really believe OP really has the strong moral convictions she puports" - sorry, based on what? Oh, actually, sod it. I really am bowing out now!

Sorry but vegetarianism is a life style choice and the NHS should not have to foot the bill. On the other hand this opens up a huge can of worms as there are lots of things that make people ill which come down to life style choices which cost the NHS (smoking, drinking, drug-taking to name a few)

And that's not even touching on conditions which aren't caused by or demand accommodations on account of life style choices. NHS paid for my alopecia treatment. It would have paid for a wig had I pushed for it. Obviously losing my hair isn't a life style choice, but neither do I actually need hair.

I was upset at having alopecia, but not psychologically traumatised at the deep existential level that (some) veggies might be at the prospect of ingesting medicines containing murdered (their view) animals. Yet the NHS prescribed me those meds for years without murmur.

I suppose the equivalent would be to ask how far the NHS go to accomodate preferences

^ Yes how far would they go?

If I went in and said that I have a strong preference not to have white tablets, should they go out of their way to make sure I have a different coloured tablet, or should I just deal with it?

If I went in and said that I can't stand anything round, should they go out of their way to find a tablet thats a different shape?

In either of these instances I'm sure everyone would say if thats my preference I should go private and they will accomodate my lifestyle choices. To me this is no different.

I'm glad you said that missy. It was in my mind as well.

I agree missy. I really struggle to swallow tablets and I'm much better with capsules however I would never insist on being prescribed capsules

If I went in and said that I have a strong preference not to have white tablets, should they go out of their way to make sure I have a different coloured tablet, or should I just deal with it?

Simply having a preference for something if there is no internal logic to that preference (unlike vegetarianism) would not be a strong indicator for accommodation.

If you were a child or learning disabled adult with a phobia though, maybe? Don't know.

If you're "just" a phobic adult, highly unlikely. NHS might pay for the counselling sessions you'd need to overcome the phobia though.

It would not be appropriate to offer counselling to a veggie to help them "overcome" their moral/religious beliefs.

If I went in and said that I have a strong preference not to have white tablets, should they go out of their way to make sure I have a different coloured tablet, or should I just deal with it?

Simply having a preference for something if there is no internal logic to that preference (unlike vegetarianism) would not be a strong indicator for accommodation.

If you were a child or learning disabled adult with a phobia though, maybe? Don't know.

If you're "just" a phobic adult, highly unlikely. NHS might pay for the counselling sessions you'd need to overcome the phobia though.

It would not be appropriate to offer counselling to a veggie to help them "overcome" their moral/religious beliefs.

Should Muslims and Jews be refused medicines that don't contain porcine products if a cheaper porcine product be the standard prescription for the NHS?

Why are only religious people allowed to have principles which are respected by others?

~"Sorry but vegetarianism is a life style choice"

For some people. For other people it's the expression of a deeply held ethical belief that animals should not be killed for consumption.

LeBFG, I think my most basic argument is that you and I can be as 'anti-veggie' and as logical as we like in our views as randoms on the internet, but we aren't in a position of power and trust and making ethical decisions on the behalf of other people.

As soon as you are in that position as a doctor or a nurse, the value of you judgment is much more significant. People need to feel the need that decisions are made with them and that they are properly informed and that they are listened to as much as possible. There are always going to be occasions where the views of certain individuals can not be accommodated but just talking that through can make all the difference to how the patient feels and what they are prepared to compromise for.

Frankly I don't care if someone comes in saying "I don't believe in red pills, because red is unlucky and symbolises death and my mother died after having red pills. I will have any colour pill except red ones" and the only pills that are available are red ones. The doctor can't magically paint them, and its the job of the doctor to deal with that belief sensitively. The Red Pill patient might have issues dealing with the grief of their mother. And the placebo effect it very powerful.

I think in focusing on the fact that the OP is veggie and the logic behind that, everyone really misses the most important issue here which isn't about the merits of being a veggie at all or how hypocritical they might be. Its about HCP listening to concerns of patients and taking on board belief which do have very important implications to us as humans. A belief in God, has been shown to increase life expectancy in more than one study of the subject. A positive outlook in life compared to a more pessimistic one has also been shown to prolong life. Logically and scientifically there shouldn't be a difference if the mind had no power over the physical body. Yet we choose to dismiss belief as trivial and unimportant and we argue of the cost of 30p, £3, £30, £300 or £3000.

We do need to treat patients as individuals, as this is the thing being lost more and more in the NHS and I'd argue the case till I'm blue in the face about how this doesn't save it money and help people.

Personally I don't see the logic to not taking a tablet because it has a tiny amount of animal product in it, and it is a very tiny amount, when the same product sould have been tested on animals.

Also the OP admitted upthread that it is in a large part down to her childhood issues rather than being particularly from a moral stance so I don't think that point is relevent here anyway.

The point is, logic isn't always relevant though.

Belief has to be dealt with in certain ways. And just saying, "I don't get your belief" if not acceptable from a HCP.

OP to me it sounds like you are more concerned about you not having to eat the animal than you are about the suffering of an animal. I think if you are unwilling to take a tablet containing animal matter (even a small bit of waste matter) then you should also refuse to take medicine that has been tested on animals. The suffering of a lab animal will have been much much greater than the death of a cow.

belief is more important.

i believe that people's choices should be respected.

if you don't want to consume animals then you shouldn't be forced to, especially when there are viable alternatives.

YANBU, the fact that you are not religious and made a reasonable decision not based on a belief but because of a fact should not mean you are taken less seriously either.

If enough people ask hopefully they will start making the capsules in veggels anyway

Also has anyone mentioned the many conditions that are more likely to be exacerbated by meat eaters? I suspect vegetarians cost the NHS less in the long run anyway!

But then where is the line drawn? In that case anyone could go in demanding anything and claim its a belief.

If you have certain beliefs and morals thats fine, but its down to the individual who holds those beliefs to find a way to incorporate them into their lives not for everyone else to have to find the solution. The OP could easily go to a private doctor who would cater to her every whim, she didn't choose to do that.

a very quick Google shows empty vegetarian capsules are readily available to buy online. Perhaps chemists stock them too. You can then take whatever medicine your ethics permit you like by transferring the contents into veggie caps (if a veggie cap prescription was not available).

the same as a Jehovah's Witness doesn't receive blood, and the NHS has to fund finding other treatment routes.

the point is that vegetarians are usually choosing not to eat meat because they believe it is wrong to kill animals for consumption.
that means that other byproducts of the slaughterhouse are wrong too - gelatine being one of them.

it's not more expensive to cold press drugs into tablets than coat them in gelatine.

the other option for a number of drugs is a powder or liquid form. again, not more expensive.

If you have certain beliefs and morals thats fine, but its down to the individual who holds those beliefs to find a way to incorporate them into their lives not for everyone else to have to find the solution

Should we kiss goodbye to Xmas and Easter hols then?